-
And Now, a Word From the Pre-Readers
by Daffodil
Good evening, fillies and gentlecolts. How’s your day going so far? Good? Glad to hear it.
Now, I’m sure you’re wondering why some guy you’ve never heard of is asking you about your day on the internet’s most popular My Little Pony fansite. Is there a new blogpony? Is this some type of incredibly polite hacking attempt? Has Seth given control of the site to Nigerian princes to use as collateral during a multi-million dollar cash transaction?
Temporarily, no, and not yet.
I’m here on behalf of the EqD fanfiction pre-readers. For the past few weeks we’ve been dealing with a huge influx of fanfic that doesn’t look like it’s going to let up anytime soon. A good chunk of these are stories that have been resubmitted after being sent back for revisions. Unfortunately, many of these resubmissions have had very few changes made from their original drafts, which requires us to read them (again), make a list of problems (which is often strikingly similar to the previous list), and send these back to the author, after which the process will likely repeat itself.
This really jams up our queue and makes things take much longer than they normally should. After bouncing some ideas around, we have come up with a system that will hopefully solve the problem: a three-strike policy.
Here’s the short version: Stories can be sent back for revision three times before we stop looking at that story, barring special circumstances (for example, if a story is very close to being accepted but needs just one more round of editing, we’ll give it a free pass).
Now, I know that sounds rough. “But Daff,” you may be thinking, “isn’t it the pre-reader’s job to help me fix my work so I can get it on EqD?” Alas, dear reader, it isn’t. I wish we had enough time to sit down with every author and help edit their work to perfection, but there just aren’t enough hours in the day. Our job is to vet stories for quality and content, nothing more. But don’t give up just yet. There is still hope. The editors over on Ponychan’s /fic/ board do some incredible work, and would be more than willing to help any would-be author bring their story as close to perfect as possible (assuming said author reads the sticky at the top of the page before posting). Additionally, we pre-readers have our own thread where we’re happy to answer any questions related to submissions, content, or writing in general.
Between these two resources, I think any author is capable of getting their story up to snuff in under three submissions. We don’t like rejecting stories, but this is a necessary step to make life easier for all involved.
Keep on being awesome, EqD.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
326 comments:
first
ReplyDeleteImportant Bulletin!
ReplyDeleteHello, Daffodil. Glad to see that you are not a Nigerian Prince.
ReplyDeleteMy friend needed to km now that three submission rule. Thanks!
not sure if megusta
ReplyDeleteWow, this makes me want to revisit my fic, I was planning on sending it in but now I'll hold off until I think it's better.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to still congratulate you guys on all the work you've done for EqD
I cannot wait to see what this does to /fic/.
ReplyDeleteMeh it's not like I've ever submitted a story but three times seems kind of harsh to me...
ReplyDeleteWell, time to edit my fic again!
ReplyDeleteThis seems like an excellent idea.
ReplyDeleteOoooh, some people are gonna be piiiiiiiiiiissed.
ReplyDeleteif we submit a story after the third rejection with a documented list of changes made so that a pre-reader can easily see if it has been changed enough to give another look over, will that work?
ReplyDeletealso I have been wondering about a suggestion for specialized pre-readers. like if a pre-reader feels he is better at evaluating some kinds of focus than others, or of one pre-reader has a general dislike of a certain kind of fic, can the fics be allocated for judgment more intelligently?
Gettin' swamped with problem stories, huh?
ReplyDeleteBefore it goes through pre-readers give it to friends and family. Online friends too! It doesn't have to go straight to the pre-readers. If I am going to submit a story I will read it over and over again, and have others read it, before it even gets anywhere close to pre-readers.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who is currently working on a fanfic but never submitted one before I feel this is very fair.
ReplyDeleteI've sent mine in twice (One I got back for revision, 2nd I got back because there were too many war stories), and I'm wondering if it's three strikes from the time of this post, or three strikes counting previous ones?
ReplyDeleteDoes the same story get sent to the same prereader each time, or does it change? It may or may not be more efficient in fair judgement, but who am I to say that?
ReplyDeleteor maybe if you have had a separate fic accepted, they will allow you to resubmit the one fic after a revision that was previously denied 3 times because if you have done a new fic that is up to standards, it could mean your new revision of the shot down fic would be more likely to have actually been improved?
ReplyDeleteHello Daffodil :D
ReplyDeleteI'm not much of a writer, but if the time ever comes, I'll be sure to keep this post in mind, not to mention make use of the resources at hand.
I feel for you guys. I know that there's a lot of bronies, and I know even I have wanted to write up a fanfic before, so I'm sure it runs through a lot of our minds. Y'all have a lot on your plates, but still do your best to help.
ReplyDeleteHaha! Do not worry, EQD! My fic still has many more weeks of editing before it sees the light of day!
ReplyDeleteThis is what keeps on ticking me off. Whenever I try and work and revise my fanfic and submit it, they complain about the same thing again about 'what's wrong with this' pointing out the same problem that I already fixed for the fifth time. And your telling me after the third time you just pass it up?
ReplyDeleteNo thanks.
I liked the idea @Adrian Brony had about adding a list of changes yourself if you're past three.
ReplyDeleteREJECT ALL THE SUBMISSIONS!
ReplyDeleteHaha. But seriously, it's perfectly reasonable with how many fics are written and tossed in.
@Ertzert
ReplyDeletethis raises another question. is this only counting fics that are rejected for quality reasons or does getting rejected because there is too many of one kind of story released recently also count?
because the latter hardly seems fair.
I wish I could write.... /foreveralone...
ReplyDeleteWut?
Umm... What? Ooh okiedokielokie!!!!! Can I make one today submit tomorrow or maybe make tomorrow and submit tomorrow tomorrow? I think I'll base it on sadly the horrible school budgie in equestria right now ): twilight is sad... Well see ya every pony! :D
ReplyDeleteI agree with the tag.
ReplyDeleteSounds reasonable to me. It shouldn't take that many revisions anyway, assuming the premise for a story is sound and authors actually listen to the input they receive.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the beginning two paragraphs, I pictured an Old Spice commercial.
ReplyDeleteSounds like you guys need more manpower to tank through all of the stories.
ReplyDelete@Pinkie Pie
ReplyDeletewat
Think you might've misinterpreted the post there, chum.
@Ertzert
ReplyDeleteWait WHAT????
You got rejected a second time because of to many war fics?
Damn I'm now SoL. I really didn't think there were that many, shoot I was already writing chapter three
As Rainbow Dash would say:
ReplyDeleteDUN DUN DUUUUN!
I don't know why I'm worried. I'm a fanfic author, but I haven't had significant issues dealing with passing the prereaders before.
But I'm worried anyway. Oh well.
I'm less concerned with the new "three strikes" rule than I am with certain... subpar fics making it past the prereaders that shouldn't have made it in the first place.
ReplyDelete@Travis Smith
ReplyDeleteIt's okay I'll still keep writing it until I do decide to send it.
@Daffodil
Who is the Pre reader of war fics?
@AestheticB
ReplyDelete/fic/ has already lost it's mind. We've known about this for days. (thanks, Snarkle!)
Personally, I think it's a good thing. It encourages reviewing BEFORE submission, which is how you're supposed to be doing it in the first place.
Most reviewers are honest enough to tell you if your story isn't going to make it. I know I am.
This is the part where I spam a post to one of the many Pre-EQD review sites!
ReplyDeleteBasically post a link to your fic here and we will do the same thing that the EQD pre-readers do, only it won't take a month. We will point out mistakes and flaws so that when you do send it in, it will have a higher likelyhood of passing. Here have a link:
http://saltblock.blogspot.com/
Note: We are NOT editors, we simply point out the mistakes and on occasion give you a tip or two...
As someone who has a fic posted here, all I have to say is it's not as difficult as you might think.
ReplyDeleteA few quick tips:
A) Spelling, punctuation, capitalization! You might need to read through your fic 5 - 6 times before you actually catch a mistake, and when you do you will feel silly for missing it the first few read-throughs!
B) Dialogue! Use those commas and quotation marks properly. There are plenty of sites you can Google to get dialogue right. Use them!
C) Character believability! Did a character just die? If so, why so the other characters seem unaffected? Don't make Sweetie Belle cuss someone out unless you've established early on that her personality is like that in your story. Keep characters believable and have them react properly to the actions and events around them.
With those 3 basic tips kept in mind, many stories will begin to improve dramatically (and will require less scrutiny from the pre-readers). There are more things you can do, but if you aren't using the above three tips, you have basically zero chance of getting through.
Good luck all!
I've never posted to a chan board before...
ReplyDeleteSpeaking as someone who had a story punted twice before it was accepted on the third try, that seems reasonable enough. Seems to me that if I submit something three times and it gets rejected all three times, it's probably not salvageable.
ReplyDelete@Pegasus Rescue Brigade
ReplyDeleteWhy would I say that? I think its good that the pre-readers are putting their hooves down
As someone who tends to wield a very large critique bat when I check over someone's stories...
ReplyDeleteEither an author will fix 99% of their mistakes in the first pass, or they'll fix essentially none of them. Three strikes is really more than generous. And yes, find someone to look it over prior to submitting it, preferably someone who isn't afraid to tell you what you've done wrong. I am very fortunate in that I have someone who will tell me where I suck, so I can fix it.
fine, I'll just find an author that's gotten here and see what they think before i send an initial submission.
ReplyDeletelies, ive read fics that were denied that were better than some that made it through...too much favoritism with the pre-readers
ReplyDeleteYou pre-readers should just be happy people submit the fics besides the fact of the biasm in some cases.
ReplyDelete@Cyanide
ReplyDeletenot without a complete rewrite that is.
Unless your natural skills as an author aren't that great.
This might explain some of my complaints with the prereader situation. I know you guys have had a lot to deal with lately, and I respect what you do. But recently an event transpired that lowered my opinion a bit.
ReplyDeleteI submitted my first fic (which will remain anon; this is not a ploy to get it through the prereaders, just a system complaint). It was sent back, as I sort of expected. So i sat down and read the feedback, eager to make corrections. Only to discover that said prereader appeared to have only read the first five or six paragraphs. This is something I had spent two weeks of my life laboring over, and had expected some serious feedback for improvement, not a quick skim of the first page, with directions to go to Ponychan (which I don't particularly like/ don't know how to use). While I know the prereaders have been busy, I just felt hurt and cheated.
@TheSlorg
ReplyDeletehow heavy does the show vs. tell have to be?
<_< I feel that's my weakest point, but I've had an author that has gotten their work here that my writing is good, but i dunno about my show vs. tell.
@wackypony
ReplyDeleteSure, but I guess I don't consider a complete rewrite to be "salvage". If I have to start over from the basic idea and write a whole new story... Well, that's a whole new story, innit?
Do previous rejections count? I submitted but was rejected... three-four months ago.
ReplyDeleteOh, having had some experience with the nice people at ponychan, if you're going to go that route for editing you need to vet your reviewers. Read through some of the other fic responses until you find some people that seem to be in line with your writing philosophy and request their help specifically.
ReplyDelete@Cyanide
ReplyDelete...likely. sometimes it just comes to rewording ideas that get the same point across but are better written, so it's not a 'new' story, but a better story.
for example, if i wrote a shipfic and the initial scenes designed to get the pair to like each other were weak, and i rewrote them to make them better, it's not a new story, at least not imo, unless i actually change the general flow.
like this one idea i have stewing, i started out with the idea of purposefully sabotaging the ship, but now I've decided to back pedal a bit and not sabotage it so early on. whether or not that back pedal makes it different enough to be called a new story, is more or less up to another reader.
This has never been a problem for me.
ReplyDeleteMy story ("Tinker Tanner Hunter Spy", go read it, kids) got in on my first go-round. So... ha ha? I guess?
I often find myself wondering just how many stories the prereaders are swamped with. I sent in a story for consideration a month ago and haven't heard back. The thought of that much backlog legitimately frightens me.
ReplyDelete@wackypony
ReplyDeleteShow vs. tell is one of the other big complaints I hear from readers. It takes some time to get right, and is often where some writers will simply give up and begin rushing their chapters.
It can vary from story to story, but a general rule is to think to yourself "Can I make this point clear through actions rather than words?" If so, go for show.
If a point can't be gotten across through actions, than telling is fine.
Just try not to do it too often and you should be good to go.
Interesting and informing. I'll be sure to keep this in mind for my upcoming story
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI concur.
ReplyDeleteHad two of my fics posted here. The submission process really isn't that hard, just make sure your story is error-free and makes sense.
ReplyDelete@Nine
ReplyDeleteResubmit. I got feedback in about 8 hours. They must not have gotten yours
@Nine
ReplyDeleteIf it's been that long, it's very possible that your story was lost along the way (and such a thing does happen). Simply resend it.
@MagicLlama
ReplyDeleteRead the post again. The pre-readers are not your editorial staff.
Good post
ReplyDeletePD: alguien habla español? D:/someone speaks Spanish?
@wackypony
ReplyDeleteI've been having problems to how to write how the fighting began, I've made it jump right into the middle of things, then drop hints, then have a chapter devoted to how it began. Butnive been told of won't work well
I here that the more the merrier, which means there could always be more pre-readers *nudge, nudge*
ReplyDeleteAlas I have not submitted my stories here because they don't even pass my scrutiny (I believe I have OCD...)
My comment just disappeared... Fine, lemme ask again without the link: I seriously overhauled my big dark adventure fic that originally got rejected ages ago (and to be honest, quite deserved to be rejected.) COMPLETELY overhauled it. Longer chapters, the action sequences aren't gory anymore, the plot is actually coherent, etc...It's nowhere near the same story as before.
ReplyDeleteI've submitted this revamped story twice with no feedback. It does share the title of the original rejected fic aside from the extra 'revamp' tagged onto it, so I'm wondering if that might be part of the problem. Can I re-submit it again, or should I just not bother and let it be consigned to FimFiction?
I have another story get accepted, though (the Kim Possible crossover), so I'm not angry about the lack of response. I just wanna know if this particular fic is one that will never be accepted, is all.
I do believe I have heard this before but it never hurts to have it reiterated. Now I just have to stop being so lazy and finish writing an idea I had. (Which I wanted to have out over 6 months ago x_x)
ReplyDelete@TheSlorg
ReplyDeleteDo they get onto you for being a little over-descriptive with scenes? like, a scene of Dash getting over her sadness and taking her interest out on the dance floor came to 80 words. Last thing i wanna get hit with is too much purple prose. <_<
uhm, yes and no.
ReplyDeleteuh, what i mean is that i'm glad the pre-readers are setting limits. it's been needing to be done for a long time, uhm, and they have lives too. also, the pre-readers are not editors, they are not there to help you get your fic in tip-top shape. they're there to make sure EqD only features the best of the best. at least, that was the idea. there are other places to get editors and general help, /fic/ being the best known one.
and, uhm, no to fic. those guys and gals are great, don't get me wrong. i, uhm, just don't like Ponychan anymore. they've really put limits on what they'll accept and, uhm, i don't like limits on creativity. sure, there are going to be trolls and what not who go there to post grotesques just to get a rise but no Grimdark? unless that's changed but i gave up on writing fics because most of my ideas are grimdark and /fic/ really doesn't want to see it (at least, that's what i read in the sticky at the time and it was a few months ago. but still). so, lacking any other outlet, i just stopped. not that i'm a famous or even good writer but if one person stops creating because of something, uhm, maybe it's not a good idea? maybe? sorry.
there are other pony chans, pony boards and forums and such to get help though, so uhm, yeah.
A three submission limit seems more than fair enough to me.
ReplyDeleteI'll have to keep this in mind if I ever finish one of my stories.
ReplyDeleteAs an editor of regular fiction, as in for money, I agree completely with this post.
ReplyDeleteUnless people start paying for the service offered, pre-readers are not editors, they don't fix your work for you.
If you have fiction that needs Editing, then send it to me, I do my part for the Pony community by turning my professional services over to you guys for free. As long as it's a Pony fiction, I'll try and help you out. Within reasonable limits of course.
Hit me up, this thing should link to my google-mail, or you can drop by my own personal fiction on FIMFiction poni.0au.de/story/4795/Wind-Chaser and see what I could do for your story.
Stop pestering the pre-readers! I want to get mine submitted here too, y'know, and I can't if they're gummed up with people not listening to what they say!
XD Keep writing bronies, we'll keep reading.
@Travis Smith
ReplyDeleteMake sure you have your setting, because that can be key to setting the tone of a fight or fic. Like, for example, a sad tale of loyalty I'm working on, i knew the best setting would be an overcast Ponyville.
back to the fight, if it's fast paced and full of action, try to make the scenery more open and the writing you use be light, yet impactful. If it's a slow fight with a lot of emotion, let's say along the lines of the Original Star Wars Trilogy, then go for more hevay language that conveys a lot. Also, it's slower paced be sure to reflect that in the location.
Or, that's how i would write a fight scene. I don't do those, i do shipping.
I stopped taking /fic/ as a legitimate source of reviews after one guy complained something Discord dis with his magic didn't make any sense. And he was serious.
ReplyDeleteIf there is a massive back up right now, perhaps it's time to open up for people to apply (or what have you) to be pre-readers? I'm surprised the three-strike rule didn't already apply.
ReplyDeleteAlso how does that apply to on going series? If a chapter gets rejected three times does that mean the story is effectively dead on EQD?
Tags: Rarity is best pony...Yup
ReplyDeleteI think this is extremely reasonable. Remember, pre-readers are not your personal editors, and EqD isn't the only place to post fanfiction. I started out by posting my stories on fanfiction.net and fimfiction LONG before submitting to EqD. No pre-readers necessary there, and it's a great way to test out how likeable/well-written your story is. Only after I felt like I'd edited my story to a level I was proud of, and after receiving encouragement from my followers on ff.net, did I gave EqD a shot. The pre-reader process was painless. One turn-around was all it took, basically for minor grammar issues and a formatting technicality. But I never would've dreamed of sending it here first. I feel for the pre-readers who get stuck reading the same story over and over by an author who doesn't take their critiques seriously. I don't think pre-readers should have to go into any more detail in their responses than they do now. Re-writing your story is not their job.
ReplyDeleteAll that being said, best of luck to all inspiring fanfic authors. My word of advice is to post to other sites first to get a sense of what needs to be improved (and then IMPROVE IT) before trying to submit it on EqD.
The problem is when you don't get any notice about the fanfic you sent :/
ReplyDeleteI already talked with Seth about it, I understand that with the huge influx of mails he and the rest of EQD recieves it's pretty much an impossible task, but it WOULD be nice if at least you got a simple mail saying: "Your fic wasn't fit. It's waiting you on the moon" (don't do that, that'd hurt).
For instance I sent one a whiiiile back (The Colt Skylark), and never got a mail regarding it. So, does that count as it was rejected? Can I resubmit it for revision if I didn't get any notice about it? It was so bad that you won't even do a list of bad things?
I'm all for order, and I agree with these measures, and hope it helps. But at least be fair and say that NOT ALL WILL HAVE AN ANSWER.
Since that was what Seth let me to understand, a response mail isn't a given.
As someone whose first attempt at a fanfic took 4 submissions to get through, I agree with this. In retrospect, that first fic of mine should never have even made it through. Three chapters later, this was pointed out after an extremely thorough reviewer on Fic went through all four chapters. That event led me to my second fic, which had only two errors spotted by the pre-readers. That's a major improvement over my past attempts. Quality control takes time and I'm going to view this as an incentive to work harder on making myself a better writer.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with this system is, from what I've heard from authors who've had their stories rejected, (stories that I and others have read, enjoyed, and found error free) were rejected not due to errors or other valid issues but pre-reader bias.
ReplyDeleteIf this is definitely the system EQD wants to use, I'd recommend ensuring no pre-reader ever reads the same submission twice at the least, or some other way of ensuring that the bias' of your pre-readers is not a factor in the submission process.
It's understandable, and I'm willing to admit that I was guilty of this, but I must say that not all the readers over on /fic/ are that willing to help. Had one last night tell me that it was "not worth his time" to read my fic because he claimed a single instance of punctuation error in a quotation. I might add that the error he claimed was an edit I made at the advice of the EQD pre-readers, so that site can be discouraging as well as helpful. Just my two cents on the matter.
ReplyDeleteMmmmm... Can't say I LIKE this new rule. A friend of mine has been trying to get his fic on here for a while (It's called 'Predator's Moon.' It's a MLP/Beast Wars crossover). He's had it rejected twice so far, and he's done a great deal of fixing on it, to the point where even I'm having trouble looking for things to nitpick about it. It's a little saddening to think his fic might not make it on here now if it's rejected one more time, especially since at least one prereader seems to have some sort of strange vendetta against his story.
ReplyDeleteHe said that whoever preread his fic the second time was particularly insulting to him, gave absolutely nothing in the way of constructive criticism, and that apparently his fic would appeal to absolutely nobody that wasn't a fan of both Beast Wars and MLP.
That said, I understand why this rule is going into place. I can't imagine how much fanfiction you guys get on a minutely basis. Still, I don't LIKE it. It's the sort of thing that inevitably forces a bunch of really good stories out of sight and away from the eyes of the fandom, into some corner of FiM:Fiction where nobody will ever see it.
If I may make a suggestion? go ahead with this rule and stop looking at a story after it's been resubmitted three times... but instead of just blocking it off completely and never giving it another chance and basically telling the author the equivalent of 'don't call this number again,' how about telling the author they have to wait like a period of two or three months before they try and submit again? Or longer if you feel it necessary.
That way, not only do you get them to back off for a substantial period of time, but they'll still get their 'shot at the big time' another day. They'll just have to wait a while for it. You get to take a break from their bothering you and they don't feel like they've been tossed out in the cold. Everybody wins.
@wackypony
ReplyDeleteI can cover individual fight scenes pretty good but I mean pretty much the whole shabang.
As in Equestria is attacked by another Empire, but I want to expand through chapters how said events occurred. But I've been told its hard to do and most people like a straight foreword "They killed Celestia, invade kill them,"etc.
The only other obstacles is character designing and I've done a bit of research and people do not approve of Mane 6 romance with a made up character who does not cross the Mary Sue line
Im not a fanfiction writer, but this new policy seems a little harsh. Maybe instead of completely banning it, you can put something on hold for about 3 months or so after the third strike. That will force the author to really sit down and edit his work knowing he can't resubmit it after a quick round of changes anyway. Basically, instead of banning after 3 strikes, put things on hold and tell the writer to get help elsewhere and make extremely major revisions over a long period of time before submitting again. It just seems like a lot of good stories will slip through the cracks once the author finally takes the time to correct things. I can also imagine that this policy will make authors completely abandon their works, and we dont necessarily want that.
ReplyDelete@Whiteout
ReplyDeleteI'm aware of that. They are, however, preREADers, so I expect that what I submit is actually read. I don't mean to sound disrespectful, it's just that I'm grumpy because my feelings are hurt.
I actually do have some personal prereaders, by the way. Hard-working as they may be, however, they are not professionals, nor do they hd the keys to getting ones fic on EQD
How does this apply to updates? Do updates even GET pre-read? It's suddenly occurred to me I don't even know.
ReplyDelete@Travis Smith
ReplyDeleteoh, those kinds of fights? eh... can't really help you there, sorry. Maybe take a series of smaller events observed by the mane six or whoever and have those events tie into the overall arching plan of the enemy? *shrugs*
like i said, I don't do fighting. I don't even read those fics. <_< you're lucky if you get me to read anything but romance/shipping.
maybe you should just get more pre-readers if you're so swamped. what could go wrong?
ReplyDelete@Grapefields
ReplyDeletewhat could go wrong? WHAT COULD GO WRONG?
MORE BIAS, THAT'S WHAT. >=[
I appreciate this new rule. I only sent my fic in once, and immediately abandoned all hope after realizing you actually have to edit the things. It's not a game, editing, and it's not to be done alone or done sparsely!
ReplyDelete@wackypony More bias? Wouldn't having more pre-readers reduce the amount of bias?
ReplyDeleteOr something?
I wrote a really long comment and my computer up and died so have a short one.
ReplyDeleteI'm not much of a writer myself and even if I wrote anything it's unlikely it would ever see the light of day but I think these rules are fair.
There will need to be alot of factors in things deciding the max of three revisions and special circumstances but I trust the pre readers to make fair judgements on that.
Good thing I've never submitted a story here, otherwise I'm sure I would've felt like crap
ReplyDelete@wackypony
ReplyDeletesomebody needs to take a chill pill. remember, this isn't congress here, it's policy over fanfiction. not exactly end of the world situation here.
@Arcainum
ReplyDeleteUpdates aren't pre-read.
Anyway, this is mostly fine with me. I do have one or two problems with the pre-reading process, but they don't relate to this.
I feel kinda bad about this. Do they often send things back for editing? I've submitted two stories and both times their only response was a cheerful "to the prereaders!" followed by "to the queue!"
ReplyDeleteDid I get them on a lazy day or something?
Lol @ the pic. "Furry drama? FUCK"
ReplyDeleteAnyways, Goodluck, home this 'influx" dies down!
Seems legit
ReplyDelete@The Numberman
ReplyDeletewell, yeah, but that's presuming we get a random selection of new prereaders and not a smattering of similar thinking prereaders.
Like, if they picked me up, I'd be biased against anything not shipping, and some pairings, but that's not to say i'd reject the fic, i'd just pass it on to someone else. I can't speak for other people.
Yet another sign to me that everyone is going to have to stop relying on EqD for their ponyfiction. We've been getting less and less stories as the standards have gotten more critical. It seems like the easier route for this huge backlog would be to lower the standards from "everything must be 100% grammatically correct down to the last comma usage" to "a few mistakes here and there, but it's a quality story so here you go".
ReplyDeleteThis is after all, not an actual publishing agency.
@Daetrin
ReplyDeleteIt's not always so simple. A friend of mine sent the first chapter of his story in once and he was told that it was good, was given a list of mistakes, and that they wanted to see where he was going with it before they posted it.
He fixed all the mistakes that were pointed out to him, and then quickly finished his second chapter... only to have it shot down and rejected in an insulting manner by someone who was, for some reason biased against his fic and gave little to no constructive criticism. I know. He forwarded me the email.
Fixing mistakes isn't the only problem here. The problem with this is that some of the prereaders, as quality as Seth insists they all are, are biased and not always dedicated to the job. If a story is unlucky enough to get caught by one or two of the more biased and closed-minded prereaders, then stories that could be awesome and well made and deserve the public eye could be shunned, simply because somebody on the staff was being a jerk, and it happened more than once.
It's why I suggested a several-month waiting between third submission and trying again. That way, prereaders get a break from seeing the same story over and over, and people that are just unlucky or stories that still have potential don't get forever shunned.
@MagicLlama
ReplyDeleteSounds like you got the same prereader my friend did :(
@wackypony That's fair enough.
ReplyDelete@Minalkra
ReplyDeleteso i re-read that sticky, seems i read that thing about Grimdark somewhere else. i'm sorry /fic/ guys. it's for the best anyway, i'm not the best writer ... again, sorry for the wrong information. i didn't mean to be a meanie.
I had the first few chapters of my story (Anthropology, maybe you've heard of it) edited by someone on /fic/. I send GDocs chapters to some friends on Facebook before they're posted to get reactions and opinions.
ReplyDeleteI've always been good with grammar, so that's never a problem for me. However, it is for most people, so get a proofreader. Besides, if you don't care enough to make sure your story is the best it can be, why should we care enough to read it?
@Dusty the Royal Janitor
ReplyDeletemaybe there seems to be need for an appeals. if you feel a pre-reader is being abusive or openly unfair (like rude response and a rejection for very little means) you can resubmit attach the previous correspondence so that other pre-readers can see why you think you were unjustly rejected. if a pre-reader's correspondence is attached, he is not allowed to review it.
Funny, I never really think of how many submissions the prereaders get.
ReplyDeleteJust thinking of having to go through that sea of fanfiction, to find a few gems...
*shudders*
@redwings1340
ReplyDeleteBasically what I suggested. This is a good plan. I hope they at least consider it :)
I have a few generalized questions.
ReplyDeleteI understand the three-strikes policy and that if it fails you'll pass it up...but I'm curious about something.
If it fails three times, will there by any statue of limitations assigned? Like for example, if you get three strikes, do you have to wait a certain amount of time (x amount of weeks/months) to polish up that particular fic and perhaps again re-submit it?
Or is this an absolutely permanent, for good rejection don't-ever-submit-anything-to-us again rejection?
And does it only apply to just that one fic in question and not to the author outright?
Will the system not account for previous strikes, or will this be implemented retroactively?
I'm just curious and wish for a clearer understanding.
@Minalkra
ReplyDeleteI was gonna say...the only limits are mostly just anti troll. Nothing to excess without a purpose for the story.
And I noticed that Tag Daff...someone is in league with Cereal...good for you
I'm really proud of this comments section. there is more suggestions and dialog than people whining.
ReplyDeleteOne reason we're doing this is, bluntly, a lot of fics will be sent back with a list of errors. Such things like "you need a new paragraph each time a different character speaks." We point out one or two places this happens and send it back with a "fix all of this type of error." It comes back and the ONLY fixes are the ones we specifically called out.
ReplyDeleteWe're not editors. We can't be. I churned through 5 fics yesterday, a few others did more, a few did less. All in all seventeen reviews happened yesterday. We have, so far, received 15 more fics today—a mix of new and resubmit fics. The queue seems to be 39 or so fics long at the moment. Yesterday was unusually productive for us, as was the day before and Monday. We have REALLY tried to dig into this. It was sixty of so this weekend.
My point is, EqD can post 3-4 fics a day. We 're overloaded. The blog ponies are overloaded. Sites like FimF exist for a reason.
We would LOVE to have enough time to have multiple people review each fic. We simply do not have the time. We're adding more prereaders. We're all trying to buckle down and review fics as fast as we can. But we have lives. (Ok. That's a lie. We have other pony stuff we'd like to do.)
As for rejecting a story based on the first 6 paragraphs. If problems exist in the beginning of a story that render it unpostable, we have a decision. In general a fic with enough problems to be rejected based on the beginning needs serious work.
We are much more likely to pass a fic with a new or novel subject or approach to a subject than we are a retread. Rainbow Dash loses her wings and is sad/suicidal etc needs to basically the best thing ever written to get passed. Why? Because there are about 600 of them. A fic about a brony who is sad and depressed and finds only joy in FiM? Done to death. Find a filly $pony in a box? Been done.
Depending on your view this is sad or bittersweet. We get enough fanfiction that, compared to many fandoms', is, for lack of a better word, legible that we can do filtering based on storytelling not just spelling and grammar.
Lastly—maybe this is news to a lot of people—EQD is _not_ a fanfiction site. We are a fansite of which fanfiction is but a small part. Sites like FimFiction and ponyfictionarchive are pony fanfic sites. Utilize them! Practice your writing! Find the people who don't like your fic and ask them why. Don't upload something and fire it off to EqD without having someone who you can honestly trust as an editor go over it. We hate sending fics away for the same things.
And please remember. At the current time we don't allow gore or sex. Ponies in heat screaming "MOUNT ME!" or a father being tortured to death in front of his family, or simply excessive description of entrails or focus on candy v*g (yes, it's still a clopfic even if none of the naughty words are used) are all things that we currently won't post.
Please direct questions to the pchan thread linked in the OP.
Good Night
@Dusty the Royal Janitor
ReplyDeleteThe email said it was Prereader #23. Which struck me as odd for obvious reasons
@Adrian Brony
ReplyDeleteI'll definitely make that suggestion to him. :) He's almost done with his third chapter so he might need it soon.
Hopefully his fic will make it up this time.
@Drakengarde
ReplyDeleteGood questions, ones I hope are addressed. The last one I asked as well, since my own fic 'Elements of Harmony and the Savior of Worlds' has been rejected already, albeit a few months ago.
@Drakengarde
ReplyDeleteif it turned into a 'never-submit-again' I would openly and overtly criticize this site till such a goddamned retarded rule was removed.
the last thing i want is for this fucking site to turn a hive elitist asshats that have superiority complexes. *glares at Seth*
@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDeleteas a avid reader of fanfics I have to agree with you, I don't care about minor grammar/spelling problems if the story is good, heck I'll even read fics that obviously need a editor/beta reader if the story is good enough and gloss over/ignore the errors in it
so far I haven't found a story which I've found "un-readable" because of spelling/grammer mistakes, I've read some pretty bad ones though...
@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDeleteBut the point of having stories featured on EqD is that they are the best. They aren't being posted for the author's benefit, they're being posted for the community's benefit.
Seriously, wanna thank you prereaders for making EqD my go-to source for fanfics.
ReplyDelete@Drakengarde
ReplyDeleteAll excellent questions. If things got banned permanently rather than put on some sort of waiting list then that would be seriously sad.
And if this encompassed whole authors rather than just single stories... well... that would just be elitist. I'd hate to see this site devolve into such a thing.
@wackypony
ReplyDeleteSame can be said for quite a few people that admins some of the pony sites bronystate is the worse.
But i have often felt that the admins in the chat here are really bad about that type of thing also so it's only fair to assume allot of the other people seth has also do that :P
@wackypony
ReplyDeleteYeah, I hear you on that. I agree wholeheartedly...
But, that really doesn't answer my questions...xD
Well...this just made me a thousand times more nervous. I just got finished with the first chapter of a fic I've been trying to work on for months (Damn you school! and Family obligations! ...and Ponies for distracting me!) and I'm currently editing/revising it before I submit it to EQD.
ReplyDelete*gulp*
@MagicLlama
ReplyDeleteYeah I hear you. Three times I've received my own story sent back to me, and two of the times the pre-readers said they had a problem with me not giving enough details about my villain.
The problem? It's a mystery story where you're not supposed to know everything about the villain. Me needing to fix grammar and adding details I could understand but it really just got on my nerves that such a basic principal of a mystery story was being called poor writing.
Hmm...My two cents on the matter. I have never submitted any of my writing to EQD, mostly out of fear and my inferiority mental problem telling me I'm not good enough. With that said, I can understand why this rule needs to be put down, and I'm all for a limit. They're obviously put under a lot of work, and they deserve a break.
ReplyDeleteWith that said, I have no doubt that they make mistakes. The Prereaders, as hard working as they are, are human and can obviously make a mistake. I have no doubt that have lost stories, corrected them poorly, or not helped the author enough. I know the good they do obviously outweighs the bad, and for the most part, they are an amazing group of people (I assume)
Now then, my only real problem with this rule is the end. I can't help but think the "Three strikes and never contact us again" rule (sorry if I misunderstand it) seems rather...harsh, I'm sorry to say. If the author's work is returned three times, they are told to no longer send their work to EDQ.
This has already been said, but I'll say it again. I think it would be better if you told them not to return it within the next three months, or even longer, if need be. If they botch up again, tell them to take more months, because either they're not looking at their problems, or there is poor communication between the prereader and author (in which case they should sit down and talk).
That's just me though.
On second thought, this is just too painful. I'll cut the prereaders some slack and not resubmit. I'm on FIMFiction anyway, so I can just leave it there. Good day. :)
ReplyDeleteAlthough one prob is that fimfic is way oversaturated. If you want people to read your fic, better whip out the shameless self-promotion. But I'm bad at it. I could dramatically post a link right here, right now, but then I'd feel like I conniving, selfish jerk
@Dusty the Royal Janitor
ReplyDeleteMy primary reason for asking such things is because I once joined a forum that had such an elitist reputation.
I will not be naming the site, but, essentially they required that before I could even join, I must pass some arduous rigmarole pastiche of an approval process. Not a problem, I thought, I could handle some insane questions and submit a writing sample or two.
Long story short, I'm on the fora for a week, waiting to get approved...and I get declined approval, being told I can re-apply in six months.
Now at that point I'm asking what the heck? What did I do wrong? The administration tells me that I was declined either because I was possibly deemed not GOOD enough, or possibly that I was deemed to not be active enough, or that I did not demonstrate the proper qualities that showed them that I would be a valuable member of the community. I was then subsequently told "please improve on one or more of these aspects."
The thing was, the administration flat out refuses to tell me what PRECISELY I needed to work on, which infuriated me to no end because how the HECK can I improve on something when I'm NOT TOLD what needed to be improved on?
Things got to a real boiling point when I complained about this and I was essentially told "Our ruling is final, don't argue with us, we reserve the right to perma-ban you."
I left, and I have never been back there since.
@Kits
ReplyDeleteIt's not like we're attacking you. Most of us here get the reasons for the rule. You don't have to get defensive on us.
What most of us are saying is nothing more than the fact that some things are unclear and that maybe certain parts of it are too strict. I think a waiting period of three months after a third submission would make everybody happy rather than sending a story to the moon forever and for all time after three strikes.
Also, if you're that overworked, maybe you should get some new pre-readers. I myself might be able to help once I graduate in a few months.
@NDupree93
ReplyDeletesend it to other users. send it to me, send it to people you trust. get your work some light, if you're nervous.
@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDelete...okay, what the hell.
So you're doing something right for the writing genre... and people are calling it bad writing because you're doing something correctly?
... what the hell?
Seems to me that only a portion of the problem is the authors here...
@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDeleteYeah, I got something like that. I had "wearer report opening." Yes, it's cliche, but I didn't use it because I'm lazy. A major subtheme and dramatic element in my story is about storms, as almost a psychological metaphor. Leaving out the storm at the beginning of the story would hurt the whole thing
@wackypony
ReplyDeleteWell, I've posted the rough draft (no editing or revision whatsoever) on My DA page, and tried to get some people to read it, but coherent criticism has been difficult coming. Would it really be okay to send to you?
How strict the pre-readers are isn't simply a function of how many pre-readers there are. You could have a million pre-readers, all that will do is slightly speed up the review process.
ReplyDeleteThe limiting factor is the number of new stories that can be posted on EqD on any given day. Let's say Seth decides 5 stories is the limit. If they get 15 story submissions a day, 10 aren't going to make the cut. That's just math, people. You can't blame the pre-readers for it.
I'll say it again: stories are posted on EqD for the benefit of the community, not the author. This site exists to provide content to the community, not to make authors feel good about themselves.
Oh, Celestia, I submitted my story three times because I thought it didn't go through right. I didn't realize there was such a back-up. I'm sorry guys.
ReplyDelete@Dusty the Royal Janitor
ReplyDeleteAs with the real world, most problems aren't the fault of one side, but of both.
Still, I have no doubt in my mind that Prereaders and authors alike both try their best. Its just that stress, overwork, and other problems can make them a bit on edge.
That's *weather* report opening
ReplyDelete@Drakengarde
ReplyDeleteJeez Louise... that's just plain terrible.
If EqD falls into something like that you can bet your ass I'm leaving and never coming back here.
@NDupree93
ReplyDeletesure, i'm wackyteen on dA.
@Thaylien
ReplyDelete"As an editor of regular fiction, as in for money, I agree completely with this post.
Unless people start paying for the service offered, pre-readers are not editors, they don't fix your work for you."
Isn't that kind of defeating your own argument?
Yes, these pre-readers are not getting paid. But neither are any of the writers that are submitting these stories. Many popular fics like 'Past Sins' would have never been posted under this new law.
Isn't this supposed to be something for fun? A place to show original and interesting stories about something we all share and interest in? Why are we bringing in the kinds of standards that you expect to see for a job when none of us are going to get paid because of this?
The sharp decline in the number of stories being posted on EqD seems to indicate that people are just going to have to look for stories themselves on Fimfiction or Fanfiction.net instead of relying on EqD, because it sounds like allot of potentially interesting stories are getting lost because of the way things are changing.
@wackypony
ReplyDelete:D
Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou
I'll send the link to you on DA!
:D
So....
ReplyDeletetl;dr version: Stop bitching and wait three times until confirmation, K?
@MagicLlama
ReplyDeleteWait... your story got rejected because it opened with a weather report?!
Okay... THAT'S just wrong.
As someone who has been both rejected and accepted by EQD, this new limitation has me a bit worried. While I can completely and hold heartedly agree with the idea that some regulations need to be put into place. Afterall, if something is being submitted repeatedly with little improvement, its both a waste of the prereaders time and an insult to them. What's more, some story ideas ARE done to death. Do we really need another 'Dash Breaks Her Wings' fic? Unless its really really really good... I think not.
ReplyDeleteIn the same breath however, its not black and white and I think the "3 strikes, your out" concept is more harsh than needbe. If someone is genuinely trying to improve their work each time, yet still not meeting the EQD standards, is it trully fair to blacklist that story? Somebody above said to put THAT particular story (story, not author) on a cooldown time so that it could be genuinely improved. EQD only hosts the best... but we all want to make it the best... Sistine Chapel wasn't painted in one try.
Thanks to all the Pre-readers and guys behind the scenes. Although, if your workload is this much, maybe its time to include fresh blood into the ranks?
On the three strikes forever thing. My gut says we'll look at it again in a while. This is a brand new 'rule' after all.
ReplyDelete@Dusty the Royal Janitor
Oh this is mild. Ponychan anon aren't nearly so polite.
He said that whoever preread his fic the second time was particularly insulting to him, gave absolutely nothing in the way of constructive criticism, and that apparently his fic would appeal to absolutely nobody that wasn't a fan of both Beast Wars and MLP.
ReplyDeleteI also received a review in this vein; I wonder if it was the same prereader. Not helpful at all and frankly very rude. The story ended up on EQD anyway, eventually, and the prereader in question has probably by now been eaten by bears, like the children who made mock of the prophet Elisha.
Um, I actually think this is pretty reasonable. The pre-readers provide guys like me a great service, since I don't have time to read every single thing on fanfic sites. To that end, I can see why they would need to streamline the process considering the current volume issues. Besides, who wants to read the same thing more than three times anyway? Either way, we're still all friends here I hope.
ReplyDelete@MagicLlama
ReplyDeletewait, you got denied because you DESCRIBED the weather in passing detail, or did like a news channel style weather report?
can you post the first paragraph here? i have a story where the first paragraph sets the entire tone of the story, and i use an incoming storm to do so.
@Cold in Gardez
ReplyDeleteFaster reviews, and more communications with the authors WOULD help though.
There are tons of people who have not heard anything about their stories for weeks or even months. They aren't sure whether they've been rejected or if they've just been passed over. More manpower would get things done quicker, and less people would have these problems.
Furthermore, while it's true that the best of the best should only make it up, discounting stories for just a couple punctuation infractions, or for maybe having a slightly common trope once or twice is wrong, and could be described as 'depriving the community of a good story'.
So I'm the only one who didn't get anything in return? ;w;
ReplyDeleteAlso, Specter Von Baren is somepony worth reading, or at least his comments in here are! Especially that last one... Yes, it's something we are forgetting more and more. But that's evolution for you, we have gotten to the point in the fandom that has grown so much, that there's standards and elitism everywhere. You can't really stop it, to some degree, you need it. To another... Well it's just saddening. Sometimes the more isn't the merrier. Or well, being specific, isn't the merrier for some.
People normally love when things grow, and the majority of bronies love that the fandom has grown so much. Others, like me, rather back away slowly and have a glance at it from a far secure distance were feelings can't be hurt by the inevitable interaction with other human beings <:)
@Kits
ReplyDeleteThank you. Looking it over again would be beneficial, I think. Though, I feel that everyone pretty much agrees that the Prereaders are doing their best and that the bare bolts of this rule is good.
@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDeletethe problem is that is under the premise that this site is focused on fanfiction. it isn't. it never was and it never will. Past sins would have been its quality if featured here or not, and if it became notable elsewhere, I'm sure that counts as their "special case"
the thing is the pre-readers are agreeing with that last statement of yours. this isn't a fanfiction site. this isn't some place you are supposed to go just to get noticed.
if you are hungry for fics and there aren't many around here to find, then by all means, they encourage you to seek to a site like fimfiction.
@Kits
ReplyDeleteThat's good anyway. Any idea how long 'a while' may be? Also, does an author have to wait a while on the whole, or does he just have to put that single story on hold for a while?
@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDeleteAs someone with a fic up here myself, I'm really comfortable with this policy. Yeah, Past Sins would likely have gotten bounced. Because it was posted unedited and was a Bad Fic.
It should have been bounced.
@wackypony
ReplyDeleteIts hard to cut and paste large blocks of text via mobile. if you're REALLY curious, my fimfiction username is the same, and it's my only story
@Whiteout
ReplyDeleteDude. Chill. Let's not turn this post into a screaming Past Sins argument. We've managed to make it this far without devolving into whining children.
I think a good solution is more fanfic sites? And then have this blog give *those* sites some exposure, and that way ED won't be the "only" place for "quality" fanfiction. Split the load a little guys! Or go visit ponychan or FIM Fiction more. There's tons of awesome stories on both sites. Or even Fanfiction.net! Usually the first few paragraphs really *are* enough to tell whether a story will be quality or not. Heck, sometimes even just the summary...
ReplyDeletePoint is I think this site should act more as a hub to split things up, we need a section with some permanent links or something.
@Cold in Gardez
ReplyDeleteExcept that wasn't how it started. And the best in what way? And are they trully the best? I had my own story sent back because an editor said I needed more showing and less telling but then I read a story that did exactly the same thing.
It seems that part of what determines if a story gets posted is if you get lucky with your pre-reader, and that is not something that should be said about a group that only wants the best.
Also, this kind of quote unquote "elitism" will most likely just cause some people to stop writing anything all together, or at the least, not bother with EqD at all.
I'm kind of reminded of Sweet and Elite now, actually.
My big thing is. I've spent years roaming Fanfiction.net and I never really cared if the stories had all the proper comma usage or misspelled a few words. I just rolled with it and continued on, there were bad stories, and there were good stories but the reason they were good or bad was based on the merit and quality of the story and not how it looked in the end. And if there were some problems with it, I was fine with it, it's a person writing for fun, not getting paid, and sharing an interesting idea with me.
I guess my point is. The more rules you put into place on your club, the less people that are going to join it until you only have a few people that are even interested anymore.
I, for one, welcome our new three-strike overlords. Not only will this ensure that people start being a little more meticulous with their stories (making them in turn better writers), but hopefully it will start making the pre-readers' lives a little easier. And if that means faster, better, and more in depth feedback, then I'm very much for it.
ReplyDelete@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDeleteYou know, something? Every time I see you I find new ways to respect you.
You are a smart, smart guy.
All I have to say is don't make pre-readers be your source of feedback. Please send it to other people before them.
ReplyDeleteThese people do a lot of tedious work for little in return. Give em some respect.
@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDeleteI feel like I need to make something a bit more clear: EqD is not a general fanfic hosting site. EqD exists to highlight the best-of-the-best fanfic in the fandom. Our standard of quality is high for this reason.
If you don't think that spelling and grammar are important, that's fine. I can respect that. However, that's now how this site operates. You're free to peruse Fanfiction.net or FimFiction for all of your fanfiction needs.
To my understanding, the majority of EqD readers are happy with the standards we've set, which is why we're maintaining them. This new policy isn't intended to exclude any potential new writers, but ensure that authors properly edit their work before submitting to us (which they should have been doing already).
@Adrian Brony
ReplyDeleteVery true. This isn't a fanfiction site.
Perhaps that's where the true improvement needs to be made then?
Perhaps EqD should post a message saying that it won't even post fan art or stories unless they are critically acclaimed from the places they hail from? Perhaps say... if it's fanart then it needs at least 20 favorites on DeviantArt (Assuming it comes form DeviantArt) and... perhaps ten favorites on Fimfiction?
The current problem is that EqD is SEEN as a site where you can get noticed, if that's not how it actually is then it should be made clearly and directly to people so neither the writers nor the pre-readers will waste their time. The pre-readers won't be wasting their time because there won't be any pre-readers for EqD because whether a story gets posted or not will be determined by its popularity.
Yes. I think this is the correct choice of action then. MLP should become like every other fandom where you have to really look for the stuff you want.
Yeah, my fic's been in the queue for nine days. :/
ReplyDeleteGood policy, by the way. Frankly if your story has clearly visible errors in grammar / construction it shouldn't be posted. This stuff takes all of minutes to fix.
@Cold in Gardez
ReplyDeleteThis pretty much says it all. I whole-heartedly approve of this.
There should probably have been a bit of clarification, like we got in the /fic/ thread: the 3-strikes rule only applies as of now. Previously rejected fics have, like all others from this moment, 3 chances.
As for all the people who're complaining about hazy pre-reader rejection responses, go and get yourself a reviewer who'll point these out for you in solid stone. Again, pre-readers aren't editors. They aren't even reviewers. Imagine walking in their shoes for a while and see whether you can muster the energy to type out a detailed error log every time you reject something.
Now I'll be honest, I tend to raise an eyebrow at some of the stuff they've let on. Even so, pre-reading is an organic process, and I have enough faith to bet that nobody was rejected without arguable grounds, because these people have been at this for some time. They've seen the best of the best get on, and they know what works and why--by reverse, they also have a good idea of what won't. Like CiG said, EqD features are for the community, and the pre-readers are the best measure of this we (i.e. Seth) have as of now. They're not perfect, but they're the best, unless somebody here would like to suggest a better system.
...alternatively, we could all have a party of sorts in the /fic/ pre-reader thread. It's a lot easier to reply and stuff... >_>
A long time ago, last year I believe, I submitted a fic. It got shot down and plummeted to the ground in burning flames. (though it really deserved it)
ReplyDeleteI think there are a lot of fics like mine, that just aren't that great, and as the preReaders said, they aren't editors. Personally, I like this decision. Hopefully, the Q won't be as bogged down as it is.
I just hope Pony POV Series can make it on here eventually, it really does deserve it.
ReplyDelete@Daffodil
ReplyDeleteI don't think that anybody is arguing that EqD is a general fanfic website. The mere fact that a 'no fanfiction mode' exists is evidence of that.
Nevertheless, one of the things you DO do is host fanfiction. And if your standards are too high, to the point where a couple missing periods will arbitrarily cause you to reject an otherwise good story, aren't you, in a way, hurting yourself as much as you're hurting the author?
There's high standards and then there's obsessive compulsion.
I don't read fanfics but come on people, you have to realize this. Believe it or not, though it may be the internet, people actually do care about proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling. If whatever you're using doesn't already have spell check, get with the times. If you can't figure out the difference between there, their, they're and to, two, and too, you do need to go back to magic kindergarten. Their job as pre-readers is to make sure that only the best and most engaging stories make it.
ReplyDeleteYou'll be better off because of it. We can tell when you only do a half ass job and didn't really put 100% into it because it does show.
I support this new rule. The prereaders are buried under fics, and I'm glad that they're going to be dedicating more of their time to reading new ones and less to rereading resubmissions with minor error fixes.
ReplyDeleteI think some people are forgetting that you still get three strikes. If you're willing to do some serious work to fix your story each time, you should have no problem getting posted, provided your story is suitable for EqD, which, honestly, not all stories are. This site is the mainstream, as far as fics go. Obscure crossovers, very adult content and strange writing techniques aren't going to do well here. I've heard of readers emailing Seth to complain about stories being written in present tense.
Write because you want (neigh, need!) to tell a story, not so that you can get on EqD.
FIMfiction is a great site, you guys! You can get readers there. Personally, I only believe in submitting my best efforts to EqD, so I only have one story on here - a story that took me three months to write the first chapter of, even with multiple years of writing experience and good marks in highschool English. Writing is hard.
I think there's a big difference between fanfiction in general and fanfiction on EqD. Fanfiction in general is written mostly for the author, and fanfiction on EqD is posted for the readers, and (as Cold in Gardez has said) for the benefit of the community. I, for one, would never have gotten into fanfiction if it weren't for the basic quality standards that EqD imposes (and they are basic; my personal standards are far higher). I don't want to read bad stories in my free time, and I don't want to wade through grammar/punctuation/spelling errors.
If the three-strikes policy gets people to stop flinging fics at EqD just as they finish typing them, then that is a good thing. If it discourages some folk who aren't prepared to work on their stories, then that is also a good thing. As I said above, writing is hard.
I'm not sure why I'm bothering to comment, since I'm not an author myself (although I do edit for a story that was accepted here), but what should writers do when the pre-reader points don't really offer any actual helpful advice? One of my favorite stories (one of the most well-written, thoroughly edited, and entertaining storeis I've read, with more than 30k views and a 4.9 rating from over 300 votes on fimfiction.net) was sent back with reasons that frankly just sounded like personal preference.
ReplyDeleteNot exactly a lot they can fix when 4 of the 5 stated problems are: using too common of a story mechanism (despite being a pretty unique approach to it), disagreeing with use of first person perspective, the "show vs tell" criticism due to a deliberate style choice of writing the story form a largely internal-monologue perspective, and disliking the "ship-teasing" element. And then the 5th point just seemed unfounded, to be honest, claiming it shifted perspective too much, despite every bit of the story faithfully adhering to first person.
Sending it to Ponychan would not have been helpful, and with so little actionable advice, I think they just decided right then not to even bother trying to resubmit it here. So when an author gets that sort of feedback, should they just assume their story drowned in the ocean of stories and move on?
@Ezn
ReplyDeletewriting, not so hard. editing and getting everything working is the hard part. which i guess falls under writing. *shrugs*
I think if you're going to do this then you *really* need to tighten up your own reviewing standards. Have some consistency in regards to letting through or holding up fics on the basis of subject and actually put some effort into the advice you give. If you want us to do better you need to do better too.
ReplyDelete@Ezn
ReplyDeleteOkay...
1) Three strikes on its own, without an addendum in the form of a three month grace period, would be an elitist and effectively crushing rule to tons of potentially good stories. Also, it does not fix prereader bias which will cause people to lose strikes for the wrong reasons.
2) That comment about how obscure crossovers should not be on here is bullshit. Pure and utter bullshit.
Crossovers of all kinds should be allowed on here. If it's good it will attract readers anyway, and it will likely attract people to the thing it's crossing over with, thereby broadening reader horizons.
That fic a friend made that was a crossover with Beast Wars? I had NEVER seen Beast Wars before he posted that fic. Now I have. And it is awesome. And I would never have seen it if I hadn't read his fic.
That's the power of crossover fanficton. That's why crossovers, no matter how obscure, should be let on if they're good and well made, no matter what they're crossing over with.
3) FimFiction... yeah, no. FiMFiction is nice in theory, but it's so overloaded and full of crap that you have to sift through, unless you're already well known or you happen to get featured, you're not going to get readers. You're just not. The only readers you will get will be the obsessive ones that read EVERYTHING and they aren't always the best readers to have.
4) It's true that wading through tons of grammar and punctuation and spelling errors is no fun, but from what I'm hearing, some of the prereaders are getting downright obsessive compulsive about it, and turning things away for only one or two misspelled words. That's not right. And if fanfiction here is posted for the community, then by doing that they're depriving the community of a good story.
Actually, this rule makes a lot of sense.
ReplyDeleteEquestria Daily pretty much was my first introduction to FiM fics, as well as the community in general. Back then, the requirements were more lax, so we got more fics. But that also meant we got a handful of good ones and a LOT of terrible, slapped-together works. Nowadays, fewer fics make it through, but they are of much higher quality.
As the post says, the resources to improve your fanfiction are out there. /fic/ is a GREAT place to get some help with editing and content. Fimfiction is also a good spot to see if your fic holds up before you submit.
And remember, if the prereaders reject your story, it isn't personal. It doesn't mean you should give up writing altogether, or even throw away that one fic. Just take what they say to heart and follow their suggestions. Take your time, get some help editing and spellchecking, and you can make it through next time.
Just make sure to turn off public editing in GoogleDocs. Just trust me on this. :(
I see where you're all coming from, but the more fans a site gets, the more elitist and selective they have to be. Not a lot of people GET to be on EqD, but lots of people WANT to be on EqD. It's considered one of the highest honours in the Brony community because they're elitist. If you see a fan fic on EqD, you can be almost sure it's worth reading.
ReplyDeleteThat said, sending fics back after reading the first few paragraphs and giving very little constructive criticism is just... well, wrong. It takes a lot more effort to write a fic than to read one, and though I understand the pre-readers aren't editors, they're almost reviewers of sorts, and should treat the fics as such. I don't know much about the process myself in all honestly; this is just a random guy's opinion.
The problem is, it's virtually impossible to completely remove bias, and I think most of the people here here understand that while one pre-reader might hate the story, another might think it's a work of genius deserving of every international awesomeness award ever. It's a bit of a luck matter, I suppose.
If the problem is with writing style, I hate to say this, but sometimes one has to conform to the needs and wants of the reader. It's painfully difficult to pull of a style if it differs from what most people are used to.
@wackypony
ReplyDeleteVery late reply, sorry. I had to go out for a bit.
As for being over-descriptive. No.
In fact, nobody really complains about my writing (YET), other than Cutie Mark Master being too short.
I just meant complaints about authors in general. Being overly-descriptive can be a problem though if you are inconsistent with it.
For example, a story called The High House by James Stoddard has exhaustive descriptions of architecture in the book... but it is consistent throughout the entire story and the overall product is pretty amazing.
So TL:DR version - be consistent with descriptions and their lengths.
@Crunch Nugget
ReplyDeleteAre you talking about 'Rorshach in Equestria?'
Because that's one of the greatest fanfictions I've read in a long LONG time, and I've been wondering why it's not gotten onto EqD. If those are the reasons why, then I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to start calling out the prereaders as just being crap at their job.
If you're not talking about Rorshach in Equestria... I guess ignore what I've said in the comment up to this point. :/
But Honestly... stories with those kinds of ratings should really get a free pass anyway. If they like to 'post for the community' as they insist they do, then it's obvious the community in general likes their stories and would probably like to see them here.
Didn't think to ask on ponychan for help writing my fic derp.
ReplyDeleteFuck the haters, pre-readers. This was the right decision.
ReplyDelete@Crunch Nugget
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly the problem. EqD is setting higher standards for the writers but not for its pre-readers. If a story is going to have a three strikes rule then there needs to be more than a general mention of what's wrong and then a shove off to /fic/ where you can submit a story and never get a response back or even know what the proper formalities are. Also add to that that the pre-readers should be able to eliminate their bias and be more professional about this.
Allot of these problems are things that someone might not honestly see as a problem or may be an artistic choice, therefore the writer won't see any problem and when told to "fix things like this" they're going to look at the story, wonder what is wrong with it and just try tinkering with it.
The problem with this? This rule is being enacted because these people aren't getting paid and they are over-worked as it is.
In other words, this entire system is destined to fail. Something has to give, and even with this new strike rule, with the reasons some of the fics are getting sent back for and the inconsistencies in the pre-readers, eventually it will be the people submitting the stories that will have enough.
The only solution to this is to just outright STOP posting fanfics on this site altogether and leave it to the sites that don't need a quality control, to accept the writing.
It will suck, I have one story on Fimfiction that has received very little attention, but at least people won't be wasting their time on a forgone affair and getting whatever amount of creativity they have become stagnated due to constant messages saying their story was yet again rejected.
EqD no longer has to deal with fics at all, and the writers won't waste time. In the end, it will be up to each individual internet goer to find the good fics, just like it was before EqD.
RE: Standards, guidelines, and pre-reader "bias."
ReplyDeleteFor any art, there is no such thing as "rules." If they start posting hard fast rules, they're going to be turning away a lot of good fics on technicalities. But if they accept these fics anyway, people will whine that these stories get in while "breaking the rules" but their own story didn't.
No good quality control has any rule except "don't be boring." There is literally nothing else that cannot be turned into a positive quality. Even almost ubiquitously "bad" things like plot holes can be twisted into a strength (go watch Emperor's New Groove for an example of that exact one).
So please do not ask for strict guidelines.
As for stuff getting rejected based on small stuff, it's probably because the story was borderline and these little things pushed it below acceptable. No good story is going to be rejected based on a couple spelling mistakes. A mediocre one though, will.
And finally pre-reader bias. I dunno how these people operate but I'd be shocked if they didn't have people passing up reviewing stuff because it wasn't a style they liked. Not everyone likes shipping, for example, so someone adamantly against it probably won't be pre-reading your shipping fic. Lesser pet peeves/etc will only really disqualify borderline fics.
If your fic's being rejected based on small stuff or what you perceive to be bias, it's probably an incredibly average fic to begin with. Step up your game and try again.
@Dusty the Royal Janitor
ReplyDeleteHaving a few missing periods isn't going to be a problem if that's all that is wrong with the fic.
You will have it rejected with a 'Fix your punctuation' message and now you're going to have two more chances to not royally screw up.
Anyone who can't get THAT right after two more tries really should just stick to other sites.
Having someone fix their punctuation isn't being obsessive compulsive either. It's maintaining the bare-minimum expectations of written literature.
I think there's a fundamental disconnect here. I see a lot of people wanting it to be "easier" to get on EqD so that stories can get noticed. Isn't it difficult for stories to get noticed on FimF or FF.net exactly because they're in so much company, though? Wouldn't laxer standards here just bring the same problem to EqD?
ReplyDeleteTo a point, we should all be wanting EqD to have and be able to have stricter standards. It means the fandom is getting bigger and there's more quality work out there. Yes, it means that not everyone gets featured. Maybe I'm biased because I already have two fics that were posted here, but shouldn't all of us, my own damn self included, be happy if we get bumped in favor of something better? It means there's better stories for all of us to read.
Now, as far as unfair bias on the part of the prereaders, I can't speak to that because I've never run into that issue. If that's a problem (and it's not just editorial policy being perceived that way)... Well, that's a problem. But it doesn't mean this is bad policy.
@Dusty the Royal Janitor
ReplyDeleteTo imply that we'd reject a story purely because of a couple missing periods is to severely exaggerate how strict we are about quality. We've posted plenty of stories immediately after minor edits for things like that were completed, and we did that because the author could write well but just hadn't taken quite enough time to iron out all the small editing chinks yet. The goal of these standards is mainly to weed out the fics written by people whose skill with the craft of writing itself (i.e. with plotting, characterization, avoiding clichés, etc.), so we don't spend all our time essentially trying to teach a single author how to write. As much as we all hate to just flat-out reject people (the grand majority of the pre-readers are fanfic writers themselves, and know all too well how nerve-wracking it is to submit/publish a new story), the fact that we're doing all this as unpaid volunteers and trying to fit it around our normal daily lives means that we simply don't have the time to do much more than grind through the ever-increasing queue. Things like grammar, spelling, and punctuation--as well as minor problems with that craft-of-writing stuff--can be fixed by an author going over his or her work a few more times, and the three strikes system gives people opportunities to do that. Beyond that, it's beyond our control whether writers want to work at improving enough to meet the standards the number of fic submissions forces us to set.
Also, to clarify something someone said about rejecting a fic for a weather report being unfair: we wouldn't do that if it wasn't a cliché that we've seen way, way too many times. If someone's saying their fic was rejected for the sole reason that they started with a weather report, though, I'm inclined to say that they severely misinterpreted the reasoning behind their rejection. A weather report opening is, like all other things mentioned in this comment and others, one possible problem a story submission can have, albeit a pretty big one that's very likely to grate on the nerves of Mr. and Mrs. Joe Pre-reader. A story is sent back for correction when it has enough of those issues to give us the impression that it would be received poorly were it to be posted, and it is only rejected permanently once the author has displayed either an inability or an unwillingness to fix those issues multiple times over. Unfortunately, the assertion that we're not like a publishing company is incorrect: we can give certain broad suggestions, but on average the volume of submissions and the call of IRL duty restricts us from spending too much time on any one story; ergo, we have to sometimes give more generic pass or fail grades than we'd like. It's not ideal, obviously, but it's the way things are.
tl;dr: we're doing the best we can, and while we wish it was enough to please everybody, we remember the lesson of Applebuck Season as much as every other brony should.
Yeah, no.
ReplyDeleteAnypony who's anypony knows that Twilight Sparkle is best pony.
As an author writing his first fic at the moment, im 100% ok with this. As long as there's some easily accessible pre-pre-reader list (ie editors) there really shouldn't be a problem.
ReplyDeleteNot being a prereader and not having submitted a fic it's hard for me to judge, but it seems like prereaders are getting fics in genres they aren't comfortable with. Maybe there should be a dedicated crossover prereader group/shipping/grimdark group.
It also seems like we're approaching a point where eqd will have to say "it's fine but we're choosing not to post it" to a LOT of fice, and not just the obvious repeats.
There does seem to be a case of pre-readers rejecting stories for personal tastes reasons rather than actual problems, is there going to be a sort of appeals board of sorts for this sort of thing? I know for a fact the pre-readers detest second-person stories for mostly being second-person (I seen the debates in /fic/, they are quite entertaining and sad), and there was a whole period of time the place wouldn’t post M/M stories, rejecting them for all sorts of weird reasons that were not right but you couldn’t really tell them otherwise. I think an appeals board of such where you present your case of why the pre-reader is wrong would be very nice, seeing when you write back you aren’t talking to a different pre-reader, you are speaking to the same guy.
ReplyDeleteAs for the whole “never come back with this” seems a bit harsh, so I think the three months period is a good idea. Also, why not use a text comparison software? I know my dad uses it to see improvement of drafts he is send, and then he just has to read the changes. I suggest you guys start using something like that.
@Nitrox Bubbles
Do you have a name or something? Cause I went to /fic/ and I have yet to see them reject helping something without first giving you a good guide to why they won’t reviewed and some links for you to find more resources for you to learn how fix them (if you don’t learn to fix them, then you will never be a good writer).
@Crunch Nugget
What story?
Everyone else, chill, go find someone who knows about writing, read a book or two, organize so that we can know when the pre-readers are just bullshitting people because they didn’t like a story (and I mean that you can show them examples of good stories which do exactly what you are doing and were praised for it, the grammar mistakes they talk about are shown to be wrong, that kind of thing, not “I like this story, you should too, FANGASM!!!!”).
@Dusty the Royal Janitor
ReplyDeleteI was talking about "Memory Pending" but "Rorschach in Equestria" is also one I anticipate quite a bit.
Oh great more people going to /fic/
ReplyDeleteI have a message for you pre-readers. As we do also have lives as you do,m and we are both usually quite busy with the work as this amazing community continues to grow. We want to make sure you tell all your pre-readers that we are not their personal proof-readers. Yes some reviewers will do that, while others will not. Also we can't guarantee that we will review their story. I find this a lot, they make, "Review my story" threads.
Please remind them that if they want their story to be positively reviewed, or accepted they should, at least, put it through a word processor. For those without microsoft word, liberoffice is an amazing and free alternative...
Thank you.
@Aquaman52
ReplyDeleteYep, this right, I spend my time correcting Moonbound while I was reading for some pretty dumb mistakes all over (ok, not all over, but I was still doing it far more than I am comfortable, I blame my uncle for that), so they seem to be lenient somewhat, or they are letting their own personal tastes affect too much the decision.
As for the weather report opening, that's bullshit, one of the best stories ever written begins:
It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks where striking thirteen.
Of course, I also think it's that bullshit that he was also just reject by that, but still, that beginning shouldn't even be an issue.
@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDelete"In other words, this entire system is destined to fail. Something has to give, and even with this new strike rule, with the reasons some of the fics are getting sent back for and the inconsistencies in the pre-readers, eventually it will be the people submitting the stories that will have enough.
The only solution to this is to just outright STOP posting fanfics on this site altogether and leave it to the sites that don't need a quality control, to accept the writing."
The solution is that not all the fics that could be posted will. That's not the worst thing in the world. Just because there are more restrictive standards doesn't mean the system is failing. The system is to put out good fics for the readers, not to completley be 100% fair and accountable to the authors. (I reserve the right to retroactively agree with you when they reject my fic ;)
Thanks for clearing that up Alexstrazsa.
@TheSlorg
ReplyDelete@Aquaman52
To be fair, I wouldn't know. I haven't written a story of my own in a long while. I'm just reading the other comments here and finding some of the things some people say to sound more than a little bit fishy. Perhaps it's my inherent distrust of any and all authority figures ever in all of history, but I tend to believe the 'little people' first in most cases. Perhaps that's my own bias I should try to work through.
You should probably invest in getting more prereaders if you're all having so much trouble. If you're having problems getting through it and you can't manage 100% to doing your jobs as prereaders as a result, and can merely squeak by and try and grind through, then getting more prereaders will only help everybody.
I'm inclined to ask where you've seen a weather report opening before... because I frankly don't remember EVER seeing a story on here that opened with a weather report. I think you may be overestimating some of your cliches. Granted I surely haven't read as many fics as you, but I'd think that if it was such a prevalent cliche I'd have at least managed to see one or two fics that started that way that were good enough to get through if that on its own isn't enough to discard it.
And I'm sorry, but if you're ignoring artistic or stylistic choices or making choices off of personal bias or only reading the first few paragraphs of a story and not getting the whole picture... you're not doing your job right. As preREADers it's your job to READ the story and understand what it's about before rejecting something. If you can't handle it and your ability to do prereader work is suffering as a result and you're cutting corners to save time... then 'your best' isn't good enough and you need to seek more help.
If you're going to hold writers to high standards, then the prereaders need to be held to high and quality standards in return.
@Cyanide
ReplyDeleteHere's an example of looking for a fic on fanfiction.net
http://imageshack.us/f/37/exampleh.jpg/
And here's an example for EqD.
http://imageshack.us/f/191/example2hy.jpg/
It's not the number of fics, it's the presentation. With ff.net, you are given a brief description on what the story is and the best you can get for a rating system is how many reviews the story has (Though this is proportionate to how many chapters it has). EqD has a nice picture to go with the fic, a star rating above it and can have a much bigger description of the story.
This comment thread needs a tl;dr.
ReplyDeleteSo I have to wonder if anyone else thinks this is accurate?
Less than a dozen semi-pithy comments about incoming complaints.
Perhaps two dozen authors/aspiring authors express agreement.
Half a dozen posters create an echo/hugbox proclaiming the virtues of lowered standards for ~150 posts.
One smug poster tries to sum everything up.
@Specter Von Baren
ReplyDeleteDo you think the latter is going to be a remotely acceptable or functional UX if they're posting 20 fics a day instead of 3? Plus, FiMFiction has a much better interface than FF.net, and yet it has the same saturation issues.
@Unknown
ReplyDeleteOh, don't you worry. "Go spellcheck this first" is going to be a popular /fic/ catchphrase. All in good time.
submitted two different stories, recieved no response whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteguess its time to hang up the quill.
@starlitalpha
ReplyDeleteOh u. Ask around in the Pre-readers thread: http://www.ponychan.net/chan/fic/res/83238.html
For me, it took a week and a second email for Seth to say "Sent to the pre-readers!". It probably got lost in the flood. You know, several hundred emails, one pair of eyes, that sort of thing.
@people who think pre-readers aren't doing it right:
Their responses aren't detailed, but if you bring it over to /fic/, it's a safe bet that the reviewers will agree as of why they said what they said. Again, no pre-reader rejects a fic on purely personal preferences to tags or style.
As of that guy who quoted "...the clock struck thirteen": it's the first sentence. There is half a sentence devoted to temperature, and the other half immediately plunges into a sense of intrigue. I doubt that the next few sentences go on to scenery without relating to the reader's sense of intrigue. Compare that to a whole paragraph of "Celestia's sun blah, birds are singing blah. Ponyville is blah, the sounds of the market blah blah".
I find myself feeling nothing but support for the three strikes rule. Given the quality of a lot of things I see get published here, I have to wonder just how awful the ones that get bounced three times are.
ReplyDelete@starlitalpha
ReplyDeleteIf you received absolutely no feedback (as in, you didn't even get an e-mail back after several days/weeks) then you should follow up, asking about your fic and what happened with it.