See that Twilight Sparkle? Shes so cute... She's also really picky. She only reads the best books!
If you write fanfiction, and sent it to EQD for posting, you have probably dealt with the pre-readers before. With a team of roughly 30 volunteers from pretty much every genre background, it's a robust selection process to say the least.
EQD isn't strictly a fanfiction website. The fandom has had repositories for stuff like that since it began. Over time, as more is created, the requirements steadily increase. Sure, a few do slip through that are less than amazing, but we are only human.
In order to smooth this process over a bit for stories we turn down, the pre-readers have created a full guide, covering all of the primary points they seek out when reviewing a fanfic. It includes tips and tricks on fixing, as well as topics to avoid altogether. With the recent influx from fimfiction, we are pretty buried!
So, authors of the fandom, I beg of you: before you submit something to EQD, please consult the document below. The Pre-readers' primary goal is improving the quality of stories for everyone in the fandom, as well as helping you grow as an author. The Omnibus has been painstakingly modified for the past 4 months, focusing on making it extremely simple to follow and reference on the fly. It covers almost every writing topic. With 60 stories in review right now, 50 of which will probably be sent off for editing, we need your help as writers to make the system speedy for all!
The Pre-reader OmnibusNow go! And Make your fanfiction SHINE ACROSS EQUESTRIA!
And for the love of Twilight Sparkle, please give the same attention to your story updates. They may not be pre-read, but you owe it to your readers!
Note: As with everything on EQD, Feedback is more than welcome. Improving the omnibus further will only improve everyone else further!
404 comments:
FIRST
ReplyDeleteidk what this is yet wanted a chance at first
ReplyDeletedarn XD
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping to submit the fic I'm writing soon, wanna churn out a few more chapters to give people something substansive to read through first
ReplyDeleteWell this is helpful
ReplyDeleteI approve of this.
ReplyDeleteI always have my follow up chapters proof-read and revised, so they have the same quality as the first one.
Perhaps this could be appended to the FAQ page?
ReplyDeleteVery nice stuff by the way.
Yeah, this post needs to be easily accessible. Like put under a section instead of leaving it as a post left to dry with time
ReplyDeleteWhich is why I reconsidered sending my story to EqD about Luna having a slumber party (it's on Fimfiction though). It see it as not my best, but I'm still writing strong.
ReplyDelete@Cloudhammer Make sure to share it with others and edit the crap out if it first. I've been working on something since September and I'm going to end up having to rewrite it like 2-3 times before I let the prereaders take a crack at it. And with good reason, too; the writing quality of the first stuff I've written compared to the recent chapters is like day and night.
ReplyDeleteRemember: first drafts are trash.
I see it as not my best. Darn typos.
ReplyDeleteNot a writer myself but looks well put together. Good job guys!
ReplyDelete@GaryOak Yea, I've got 2 of my friends proofreading it with me, and keep in touch with a couple more people online. The guys over on FimFiction have been fantastic help for soundboarding
ReplyDeleteThis is extremely useful for anyone who is wanting to contribute to the community through EQ Daily. For the most part, the quality of the stories linked to on EQ Daily has been magnificent--I almost never read a story that hasn't been posted on here, simply because, by being filtered through EQ Daily, I can avoid subjecting myself to the more grievous examples of Sturgeon's Law.
ReplyDeleteoh for the love of god. formatting is probably the number one issue over on fimfiction. I hope those writers take some of these notes up. nothing ruins a fic like a wall o text.
ReplyDeleteNow this made my day. I'll be sure to give it a full read and have it handy now. I'm just in the middle of a first chapter and was really hoping I had something like this to make sure I made it the best I possibly can.
ReplyDeleteIt still recommends OpenOffice and not LibreOffice! I shun your pathetic editing advice!
ReplyDeleteYou really should go into at least some detail about what "Signal to Noise ratio" even means... it's kinda confusing.
ReplyDeleteTo add to this, I'll reiterate something I've said before:
ReplyDeletePLEASE GIVE AS MUCH ATTENTION TO YOUR SUMMARY AS TO YOUR ACTUAL SUBMISSION
This is the first first impression you make on a potential reader. The description is what determines whether a lot of people will read your story. If there are typos in it, they will expect nothing more out of your writing. Make sure you sell your story, and make sure you do it with polish and care.
The meme thing is so true.
ReplyDeleteFucking Past Sins, after the second '20%' I deleted that and never looked at it again.
Well well well, it's been a while since I've seen a guide this detail.
ReplyDeleteExcellent stuff, you've created a helpful aid which would have a pricetag under most other circumstances.
-Blader
Thought I saw this posted a week or two ago?
ReplyDelete@Spitfired like fanfictions, it got updated
ReplyDeleteIt's an amazing guide though :)
ReplyDelete@Bombedrumbum
ReplyDeleteAh. Ok.
@Lugonn woah.
ReplyDelete@Present Perfect
ReplyDeleteSummaries are hard... [/Scootaloo]
Hmm. Brb reading this then trying to fix my multitude of mistakes.
ReplyDeleteHuh?
ReplyDeleteThat's really helpful, thanks for creating this guide.
ReplyDeleteI present a flaw in your argument, good sir. Twilight Sparkle reads EVERY book.
ReplyDeleteIn all serious, I understand how important it is, when running a website like this, to present only the best. I wonder if this means my videos aren't good enough yet. Is there such a thing as a pre-watcher who can tell me if it's okay to send them in, or is this a story-exclusive service?
@Spitfired
ReplyDeleteIt got posted in a nightly wrapup post. Now it's its own thing.
I think it's been added to the submission page as well.
I would like to add that while this is an excellent guide, the pre-readers are, as the post states, only human. Their word is not law, and sometimes their feedback may not be the best, though it is well-intentioned.
ReplyDeleteWhen I submitted my fic, one prereader said that Celestia's contractions needed to be removed. Whether his/her headcanon edited them out or what, Celestia uses contractions in the overwhelming majority of her speaking roles in the show.
It's just anecdotal evidence, but folks should take some of their suggestions with a grain of salt.
Wasn't this already posted? I know I already read it...I mean I guess it's good to get a reminder, but still...maybe this could just be posted in the submit section so it can be there whenever anyone wants to take a look?
ReplyDeleteIs it wrong to take this whole thing as a challenge?
ReplyDeleteI don't care, I'm writing something and seeing if I can get it through the prereaders.
And I would love to see the criticism if it soesn't make it.
Guessing this is why some people have been getting a bit grouchy that they haven't received any reply of any kind after they submitted?
ReplyDeleteI would personally include some tips about writing accents. It's very hard to do it right, and with characters like Applejack and family with very distinct accents, it's an issue that comes up a lot. Other than that, it's a pretty helpful guide. I'll probably bookmark it for future reference.
ReplyDeletehold da phone...
ReplyDeleteyou mean i coulda just submitted my update without waiting for a reviewer to look over it >< arg!!!! /charliebrown
Oh well, i want my updates to be spiffy keen so i can just suck it up if my readers will too
I die a little inside when I see a word that's made possesive when it's supposed to be pluralized.
ReplyDelete@John
ReplyDeleteit might've been in a nightly roundup, but Cereal has written a comprehensive fanfic writing guide. <_<
I'm disinterested in getting any story proof-read or edited. I'm not so much worried over my 15 minutes of fame, as to believe that getting something hand-critiqued by a group of my fan peers is going make me a better writer... over what? Copywrite infringing stories that use characters without permission?
ReplyDeleteEgads... I tremble at what will become of the universe if fans actually got to write fan-fiction and they didn't need to jump through so many hoops to do it.
I'll see your suggestions on submitting fan-fiction, and raise you an "Oppression of Creative Liberty", since it seems that the narrow margin of what you want to read versus what is being submitted is growing ever tighter.
Maybe when I write the perfect MLP story, I'll do what should be done, and get permission from Hasbro to publish it, instead of spinning my wheels waiting for my friendly neighborhood grammarians to comb over my story and help me make it into a masterpiece for something I don't own.
until then, I look forward to the continued updates, and the growing creative control on the fan-base.
@wackypony
ReplyDeleteThat has been included near the bottom of the document. In fact, I think it borrows from it (the part about believing that your story is the story to end all stories).
A very good guide, given me a few thoughts on changes for a fanfic I submitted the other night, not that I expect it to sneak through the pre-readers as it currently is.
ReplyDeleteI still have one problem though: how exactly do you want these submitting? I've only just started reading this blog about 2 weeks ago and hammered together an ok opening chapter for a story, but I'm still confused as to whether you want us to link you to where the story is, stick it on GoogleDocs or attach it to the submission email. That particular detail may already be known, but then morons like me turn up and just get confused.
Hi all, btw :P
@LugonnEven Fallout: Equestria, which I love, fell into this problem. Forcing replication and references to the show where they didn't fit.
ReplyDelete@David-ism™
ReplyDelete...What?
@David-ism™
ReplyDeleteWhat is this I don't even
@David-ism™
ReplyDeleteHi, I'm quality control, and I respect your right to write. Write about ponies, about happiness, balloons, dongs, lightning, alicorns, parties, or - in fact - any of these AT THE SAME TIME.
I do, however, remind you that unless we're all being paid for the privilege, we don't have to post anything you submit on this website.
For your personal, free range, un-edited and unrestricted fulfillment, may I suggest fanfiction.net, fimfiction.net or deviant art?
@WildFire15:
ReplyDeleteLink to it, on Google Docs or any other site. The submission rules are up in the tab that says "SUBMIT" at the top (you have to click a second time for fanfic).
@WildFire15
ReplyDeleteThere is a gigantic "SUBMIT" button in the upper right corner.
It takes you here: http://www.equestriadaily.com/2011/09/how-to-submit-to-equestria-daily.html
A subpost within that link takes you here: http://www.equestriadaily.com/2011/04/blog-news-new-story-submission.html
@David-ism™
ReplyDeleteObvious parasprite is obvious.
Something I would suggest adding Seth, is when re-submitting a story to EQD, attach the notes a previous pre-reader gave.
ReplyDeleteI hear FAR too many horror stories of "OMG I SUBMITTED TO EQD AND GOT IT REJECTED. THEN I FIXED IT AND ANOTHER PRE-READER SAID DIFFERENT STUFF".
People should have been doing this anyway, but it couldn't hurt to remind them to give the pre-readers as much to work with as possible, including previous notes.
This will definitely come in handy. I have a fan-fic that's been bouncing around my head for weeks that I just need to write down. Will it be any good? I have no idea but this will definitively make it the best it can be. Thanks guys!
ReplyDelete@Midnight Shadow
ReplyDelete^Owned.
Well, that should be helpful. It should raise the quality of the stories being added, and that should raise the bar for stories to be published. In the end the writers will be improving all the time, and we'll all have better stories to read.
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping to post something here at some point, though I don't know when. I'd at least like to get it close to where it would be accepted first; that way, the pre-readers would have less of a job pointing out the flaws that are there.
Anyway, good luck to anyone who plans on sending a 'fic to be scrutinised. I'm sure it won't be easy, but it's rewarding when you know someone likes it - or even thinks it has the potential with a few tweaks - as well as being a real confidence-booster.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Emty:
ReplyDeleteThis is a great idea. Especially when the submission e-mail title gets changed, or if it's been a long time since the first submission, we can't always find the old comments. They're generally very helpful to have.
Authors should also give them to the reviewers at ponychan when seeking assistance there. I dunno if we tell people that, but there ya go.
> She's also really picky. She only reads the best books!
ReplyDelete*cough* "Supernaturals"... *cough*
As a reader I must admit that EQD fanfic selection process is very good. There are no fics with glaring grammar or logical errors and the majority of stuff is fun to read. Though, I've read a couple of very good fics that have been discarded by pre-readers.
Just goes to show, I'm only ever going to share any fanfiction I write unless the pre-readers pass it.
ReplyDelete@David-ism™
ReplyDeleteBasic standards of quality aren't "oppression of creative liberty." It's possible that you could argue EqD's submission process goes beyond merely requiring stories to meet a basic standard- I don't know enough about it to say one way or another- but only allowing certain things through the filter is most certainly not a bad policy. Besides, there are plenty of sites that will let you post whatever the fuck you want, no matter how horribly written or stomach-churningly fucked up it is.
Anyway, you seem to be approaching writing from the wrong angle entirely. For one thing, fanfiction can be used to improve your ability as a writer (it's no replacement for writing original works, of course, but it has a couple of unique challenges to it as well), but more importantly, your goal as a writer should always be to make your work as good as it can possibly be. If you're not going to put in the thought and effort and actually produce a quality work of fiction, why are you bothering to write at all?
Also your tirade about contacting Hasbro or whatever is stupid. You could write the greatest work of fiction ever produced by mankind for them and Hasbro won't give a fuck because they're a toy company and they don't publish fiction (outside of the occasional picture book or whatever).
@David-ism™
ReplyDeleteUm, there are other sites besides EQD that handle fanfic, good and bad. I hope you understand this is so EQD isn't filled up with shitty fanfics and the such. I don't want to have to scroll through 20 pieces of crap just to find something decent to read. Not all people are gifted with writing talent, so I think this is highly necessary. Given that, any form of constructive criticism always helps for any kind of artist, whether musician, writing, drawer, etc. :)
Honestly I don't get really what you're trying to say O.o But I guess thats your opinion... ?
@A Pony Farce:
ReplyDelete*stomps hooves in applause*
@Midnight Shadow and all quality control staff
ReplyDeleteSo, does "flooded" mean I shouldn't bother finishing my fiction right now? You've got your hands full and wouldn't look at new submissions anytime soon? Or you have a queue going on and I should make haste if I wish to see my fic previewed in my lifetime?
Anywho, this looks great! Hopefully we'll gets lots more top quality fics and many bronys will continue to improve in their writing! :)
ReplyDelete@IkkouSoryu
ReplyDeleteGenerally stuff that doesn't need any fixing slips through very quickly. The queue is more of a list of stories to review, in no particular order. Pre-readers glance at them, and review the ones that fit their interest (usually)
So get it nice and edited and it should be fine!
EVERYPONY who writes should be at least passingly familiar with the rules of narrative and (especially) the guidelines set down in this document. There are over 1100 stories so far in the EqD archives, and while I've not read them all (prolly about 500-600 have gotten a look-over, nothing below 4 stars), I've seen only 1 that breaks the rules and gets away with it. ONE. OH EN EE. Think about that.
ReplyDeleteDoes your story have to have an archetypal plot and follow the 3 (or 5) Act structure? Of course not, but you'd better be damn sure that it's worth reading if you don't.
And yes, this is the primary reason that I haven't bothered to submit anything myself, because I KNOW it isn't good enough to put out to the public.
Sixty in line with fifty likely going to be sent back for editing! Wow, that's scary Seth. Even with a team of thirty volunteers, that is a lot of fan-fiction to get through.
ReplyDeleteStill, I applaud the pre-readers for putting together such a concise and informative document, and I hope it does have an effect on the quality of fan-fictions submitted to the site.
Also: please have writers review their basic grammar! I'm grammar OCD, and it completely turns me off/really bothers me when I see misplaced commas and quotation marks.
ReplyDeleteIn particular, as one of my favorite sites http://owl.english.purdue.edu says: if a direct quotation is interrupted mid-sentence, do not capitalize the second part of the quotation.
I do realize I'm probably being unreasonable here. Humor me? >___>
I have learnt more from this than an entire term of school o.O
ReplyDelete@Shantara
ReplyDeleteWe do try to keep the bar high enough that it won't waste any readers' time, but we honestly don't want it too high that good stuff gets rejected... unfortunately, that's a hard act to manage, and you can't please everypony.
If you think you're being told to change something you honestly don't want to change, and the pre-reader isn't saying "THIS MUST BE DIFFERENT" then chances are sticking to your guns is fine, but don't say we didn't warn you...
@IkkouSoryu
ReplyDelete...what Sethisto said. It's a queue, so submitting it will see it eventually move through that queue... it's not like the flood of fiction will stop any time soon.
>60 stories on the pre-readers docket.
ReplyDeleteWelp! Now I can stop worrying about my submission, it'll probably take a week for them to reach it. I tell myself every day that I shouldn't worry, that they'll read when they can, and I'll find out then if it has passed pre-readers or not. But it just nibbles at my mind, you know?
*Reads the Omnibus as it has finally loaded*
I swear I've read this before, I have actually. I remember absorbing as much info as possible from it the last time. Oh well, re-reading it won't hurt.
>Composition software list
You mean writing it out in Notepad++ ISN'T acceptable? *feels like a failure* My story is doomed!
50 of them were rejected? What I would like to know is how many of them share similar themes and what those themes are. I've seen the "Rainbow Dash loses her wings" plot mentioned before and how that there were many of them, but I haven't come across one personally. I particularly abhor "I've always loved Character X and now is the time to show it!" as a means to drive the story forward. Linear crossovers, which are essentially straight remakes with no new surprises, are also rather dull. Vampires, zombies, and werewolves come to mind, but I have yet to encounter them in this fandom. That's essentially the entire Fiction Press horror archive, but I digress.
ReplyDeleteAside from bad OC's and what has been mentioned in the overpopulated crossovers section, what other themes are there that are very likely to be sent to the moon immediately if they are handled improperly?
After reading this guide and some of the ones it links to in more detail, I must express significant amounts of gratitude towards the creators of the guide. It is an excellent tool, one that should be very useful for helping me improve my writing. A number of issues I've always had with my writing in the past(not pony writings necessarily but writing in general) can be corrected through the use of guides such as this. While I may have felt initially discouraged somewhat upon reading certain sections of the guide--things such as how difficult dealing with crossover material is--on the whole I feel far better about my chances of writing something decent than I did just an hour ago.
ReplyDeleteThank you very much, EQ Daily!
I have serious problems with one of your definitions of a Sue, mainly the whole 'better than the main cast' bit. Better how, precisely? They have to tell at least one lie so as not to be more honest than Applejack? They must be snarky at least once so as not to b kinder than Fluttershy?
ReplyDeleteIn its own way, that demeans the main cast by forcing them into those roles, or by saying they can't have off days. And to be honest, until I see her in direct competition with the Wonderbolts, I am NOT convinced Rainbow Dash is the best flier in Equestria.
Besides, being better in one area doesn't mean better in all. Take Dainty Dish from 'My Little Blackbird'. She's faster than Dash, but comes with a WHOLE host of problems that do NOT make me want to be her. And being faster is the only thing she's better at. She can't make sharp turns, or even hover.
So, where is the line drawn? Is it any activity? Certain activities? Must the main cast be better in all aspects of their element? Or of what they like to do?
@OtterMatt
ReplyDelete>archetypal plot and follow the 3 (or 5) Act structure
Uhh... what? Is that just jargon for something I'm so familiar with that I never notice it when reading, and I do it myself automatically when planning stories out in my head?
*Googles*
Ayep, it is. Stop with the technical language when laymen's terms are more appropriate
Just read the Editor's Omnibus. It very well outlines what any fan-fiction writer can do to have their work featured, as well as offering good rules to follow for writing in general.
ReplyDeleteI see no suppression of creative liberties here, just a good guide to follow if you really care for about your ideas.
In all honestly, if these are the standards that are upheld by EQD, I'll certainly be checking out more of the fan-fiction. Good luck writers, I look forward to some top-notch stuff in the future!
@RK_Striker_JK_5
ReplyDeleteThe line is drawn when it becomes clear to the reader that the character exists only to be better than the Mane 6.
Have a pony that is on par with Twilight when it comes to magical ability, but has his own share of flaws and doesn't flaunt his magic? Fine. No problems there.
But if he can do magic better than Twilight, communicate with animals like Fluttershy, fly faster than Dash (DUE TO MAGIC!), and has better fashion sense than Rarity, well, that's a problem.
X.X wild sky needs some alpha readers. Li'l mysecsha is intimidated now...
ReplyDeleteSo the fear of immediate rejection has already struck me. Although I've gotten some mood boosting feedback on my fan fiction, reading this makes it seem like... nothing... It's not that my grammar is on the wrong side but it's just perhaps some patterns I'm not seeing here.
ReplyDeleteTo have my fan fiction posted on EQD would be a great honour, but now I'm not sure how I'm going to go about all this. It kind of makes you lose some confidence, but I can't let that stop me from what I truly love in writing and that is in fact sharing and applying my imagination. I thank you dearly for the heads up.
@Daffodil
ReplyDeleteThank you. That seems to work... for now. But I still feel the main cast shouldn't be held as the absolute pinnacle of their... whatever they do. As I said, in its own way that demeans them.
This would be posted the day after I submitted my first work.
ReplyDeleteRaaaaaage!
Still, I don't think I violated it a ton.
@Forest Thundertred
ReplyDeleteI know it seems intimidating, but don't worry too much. Make your story as good as you possibly can, then submit it. At best, it gets posted immediately. At worst, it gets turned down and you have a nice list of things to work on. Don't think of it as rejection; think of it as an opportunity for improvement.
@Daffodil
ReplyDeleteI don't know about that. I think having a Pony with better or equal magical ability than twilight is more then a little sketchy. Princess Celestia straight up said she had the most potential of any unicorn she'd ever met.
Same thing with Rainbow dash, although not as bad. Short of a member of the Wonderbolts Rainbow dash should win any race. And even against the Wonderbolts, the two sonic rainboom's make me think Rainbow'd win
Y'know... I read the omnibus and most of it seems like a grammar guide. Either that or common sense. I would honestly recommend linking to particularly good fanfics or at least quoting them and having more examples to show what is good or excellent versus mediocre or unacceptable.
ReplyDeleteAlso mentioning that a good idea or a well thought out one will get much further than one that is made up on the spot... I know, I did NaNoWriMo and it was hell trying to make things up on the spot. That being said, I haven't edited that story yet because I'm too busy and lazy (lol internetz) to edit it, so don't get that in the way. Set aside some time to write or edit, you'll get somewhere in the end.
Is this the same guide that was posted a while back, or is it a revised edition?
ReplyDeleteWith so many much materials you need to be somewhat selective. If your piece doesn't make the cut. Read that document, go back and rethink it. Ask friends even for any advice they may have on how to improve it. And don't rush it. Anything worth doing is worth doing well.
ReplyDelete@Kranbe
ReplyDeleteAny that she's ever met... and even Celestia cannot have met every Unicorn ever born or trained.
As for the sonic rainbooms, it can be at least inferred she wasn't thr first to do one. I doubt she'll be the last, either. And those two were special circumstances to boot.
All I'm saying is the main cast can't be put on a pedestal so high they'll topple off from the breeze.
@Kranbe
ReplyDeleteYou have a point. In the end, it comes down to how it's presented to the reader.
The character can't walk into scene and immediately cast a spell with ease that Twilight has been working on for months. However, if we have a good amount of plot establishing that he studies just as much as Twilight, hangs out with Twilight, and has some qualities that she lacks, and then casts the spell, it's a bit more believable.
Great!! Three of my friends are working on a collab, this should really help them out a lot. Or give them rage fits they don't need.......... >>'
ReplyDelete@RK_Striker_JK_5
ReplyDeleteAh, the answer to the question you ask is very vague and difficult to locate. It all falls under the perception of the readers, and their willingness to suspend disbelief. There is a point where a reader will stop believing a story, and then they'll rapidly lose interest as the rest of it begins to look like a farce. The trick is to find the middle ground between making things so believable that it is bland and predictable, and making things so 'out there' that nobody can believe it or honestly continue reading without it being done out of irony. Extremely [Random] stories completely ignore a reader's willingness to suspend disbelief, and are read out of irony, but that's the author's intent. [Normal] stories, however, need to be believable, so anything that is too far-fetched for the tone of the story will break a reader's ability to disbelieve it.
Imagine a fic where the Mane 6 go on a quest to help the Griffin Kingdom fight off a devastating evil. The whole time you're reading it you note how it feels like an episode of the show, only with a more grander scale and longer story, and perhaps looking at a more PG rating than a TV-Y rating. But still you love it, because it's a great adventure story.
Then suddenly, a spaceship descends from the sky, the Mane 6 hop on, and they proceed to fly around in space, shooting candy canes and gumballs at spacecraft shaped like clown faces. Imagine the whiplash from that. You've gone from an interesting adventure story that is fuelled by the show's medieval influences, and been thrown straight into an absurd scenario that sounds like it came from a sugar-coma.
Naturally, you hate the direction the story has taken, you simply cannot believe it anymore, and so you stop reading it.
It's an exaggerated example, but it helps explain my point. The space-adventure scenario would work in it's own fic, and it would be written for comedy and silliness, where believability is not as high of a requirement. Meanwhile, the big quest to save the Griffon lands would be written with drama and action/adventure in mind, and so it would be taken a bit more seriously - making the believability of it a bigger factor of it's success.
I think the Editor's Omnibus is a valuable resource for every writer to consider. Think of it this way: the authors of this guide have read a lot of submissions and they've seen a recurring pattern of problems. If you read this and recognize your own writing here, well, take the hint and "step up your game." And take a moment to be thankful that they are, gently, guiding you to a better place.
ReplyDeleteI like having a guide like this. It's not so much an intimidation factor as it is a "we know you can do better...here's how!" kind of a thing.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I'd suggest is for authors to read On Writing. It provides a great deal of accessible advice for aspiring storytellers, and it's pretty reasonably-priced to boot.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I stray from it more than I'd like, it's something I feel has been responsible for me being able to write anything coherent at all, and I cannot recommend it enough.
This is good, a way for writers to get better and improve by, because their is SOOOO MUCH FAN FIC.
ReplyDeleteAt least they have some sort of guide to writing.
The more I learn about the prereading process, the less I like it.
ReplyDeleteAnother point: I out writing fan fiction long, long ago. (Star Trek, Original Series. OG, y'all!) And I recognize every problem mentioned in the Omnibus in my old writing. Perhaps we all start in the same place, as writers, but we don't have to stop there.
ReplyDelete@Midnight Shadow:
ReplyDeleteAdding to this, there are a lot of different responses pre-readers can give. It's a long gap between "this does not conform to the rules of grammar and style" and "this is written competently, but it could be so much better".
Personally, when I see something that has potential, that presents a good idea or interesting characters, I want it to be at its very best. I'll send it back for nitpicks if I feel the author has the skill to polish them out, because I also make the assumption that the author has the same desire to present the best thing possible. We take pride in the stories, I mean the really good ones, that we pass on to the blog. You give something a go and it hits 5 stars within 24 hours, that's a great feeling.
So yeah, sometimes you'll get a, "Here's a list of stuff that needs fixed," and sometimes it'll be, "Hey, if you want this to do really well on the blog, here's some advice." In that case, it's all up to the author and how much work they're willing to put in.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteCRAP I OPENED DITZY DOO'S DISMALLY DERPY DAY WITH A WEATHER REPORT! I should be glad you didn't flense me for that. :D
ReplyDeleteUnder "composition software", you might want to link to LibreOffice. Due to conflicts with Oracle, most of the OO programmers left the project and started LO with the same open source code, and from what I've heard OO development has pretty much ground to a halt while LO continues to improve.
@SprintF
ReplyDelete@Jake
@SprintF
Also, these. Well said, guys.
@Logan Warner
ReplyDeleteYeah! Damn those pre-readers for insisting on quality works for a website read by millions! How dare they expect me to work hard on my fanfic and make sure it is laid out correctly, accurately spelled and properly grammatified!
It's just The. Worst. Possible. Thing!
So does this mean that we can't do crossovers anymore?
ReplyDeleteI'm starting to lose hope on my fanfiction, I feel like i should just give up, im not a good writer, and even after freakin ponychan gave me some tips and corrections it was still rejected, i feel like i should just give up.
ReplyDelete@Hivemind
ReplyDeleteYes you can, but try to avoid crossovers that are done to death, already have a compilation page or are incomprehensible to one half the fandom. Ideally a crossover should be accessible to readers from either universe, and that's hard to pull off.
@Dan Guitar-Guy Gaertner
ReplyDeleteSometimes, it's just a no (and no, I haven't seen your fic, so this isn't me passing judgement on it).
Write it anyway, do your best, publish it on sites like fimfiction and fanfiction, but beware the hugbox. Try to make your work better, to make each chapter better than the last, and grow your skill.
If you aren't writing for yourself, you will get bogged down in trying to please too many people, and you will fail. Try to find that balance between pleasing yourself, and writing something others can understand and enjoy - the only way you can do this is with practice.
bookmarked~ this should help me plenty with my fanfic :3
ReplyDeleteWow VERY VERY helpful =)
ReplyDeleteThank you
How do you get a picture for the cover art? I don't have any connections on deviantART and can't draw!
ReplyDeleteTo everyone worried about rejection... it's usually fine. I've written one fic, and got it on here. The e-mail regarding it's pre-reader review merely pointed out a few formatting errors and show vs. tell mishaps. It most certainly wasn't 'LOOK AT ALL THESE MISTAKES, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?!'. Went back and edited, and hey, it got 5-starred.
ReplyDeleteBest advice? Post it to Ponychan or FimFiction, get feedback, then post it here. Worst case scenario, you get a few pointers to improve your story.
@CLAVDIVS CAESAR
ReplyDeleteThe fact they singled out 'don't start with a weather report' seems daft to me. If the first scene is set outdoors, why should you step around saying what the weather is?
I would make it clear that everything you have listed under hazardous terrain isn't a hard and fast ban. Almost everything listed there can be done well.
ReplyDeleteI don't really like the second example paragraph under Variety & Precision. I get that you're trying to illustrate the many different ways you can avoid using someone's name, but if someone actually wrote that in a fic, I'd be very, very worried about purple prose.
ReplyDeleteI'm no good at self-editing.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's hard to find a Brony who writes and is willing to become an editor for your Fanfiction.
I don't need an editor yet, I'm just wondering where I would find one when I need one. [My fanfictions only 4000 words in and nowhere near finished...]
@WildFire15
ReplyDeleteIf you start with "IT WAS A BRIGHT AND SUNNY DAY IN PONYVILLE" like thousands of other stories, you should probably go back and think of a more creative way to set your scene.
There's nothing wrong with mentioning the weather, it's more mentioning the weather in the driest, most uncreative way possible when it has no bearing on the story.
@Katsu Aoki
ReplyDeletePonychan's /fic/ board has a Training Grounds thread where you can submit a story for review. They do good work.
You can post it on Fimfiction, but I wouldn't take any response you receive from them seriously. At times it seems that anyone capable of putting words together into sentences can earn a 4star rating on Fimfiction or Fanfiction.net.
@Mattatatta
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to be a phenomenal ass, but if you don't know what an archetype is, or even how to structure your story in ways that have been used literally since before the Iron Age, you have no business writing OR critiquing.
"It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents — except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness."
ReplyDelete^--Don't do that : P
Now someone will send in something amazing that breaks all those rules you guys and gals have gathered, I'm sure.
ReplyDeleteAs a sidenote, I don't look at TV Tropes quite often, but it's amazing, and when I do, I do it...PINKIE PIE STYLE!
@Dan Guitar-Guy Gaertner
ReplyDeleteIf you did, then you would never improve, and no one else would be able to read your story. That would probably be sad, if for no other reason than you can always improve yourself.
@David-ism™
ReplyDelete"Egads... I tremble at what will become of the universe if fans actually got to write fan-fiction and they didn't need to jump through so many hoops to do it."
^
lol, that's how it was almost a year ago: even with just a small fraction of the fans there are now, there were more fanfics updating back then than there are now.
@OtterMatt
ReplyDeleteI realize you'd rather people know what they're doing when they write, but there's a reason the Omnibus doesn't mention archetypes. You don't need to know what a graphics card is made of to assemble a computer.
@S008
ReplyDeleteThat is the difference between a good writer and an amazing one. A good one follows the rules, an amazing one knows when not to.
@Dennis The Menace:
ReplyDeleteFind a picture that fits your story and ask the artist if you can use it. The worst they can do is say no. When in doubt, there are always screen caps. (It is never a good idea to use the pony generator.)
@3Power:
The point of "Hazardous Terrain" is that these things are more often done horribly, by inexperienced authors, and thus should be avoided in deference to learning the basics and honing craft. Once you've got a firm handle on writing, and have proven yourself more than competent, it's okay to try tackling the hard stuff and even breaking the rules. Most people are not good at knowing when they're ready to do that, however.
@OtterMatt:
Hey now, it's possible to use something properly without knowing what it's called. I'd certainly never had a discussion of three-act structure in any of my writing classes, and I bloody well majored in it.
@Mike:
Yes, and we use terms like "January fic" and "February fic" to denote attempts that mirror fics posted around that time in simplicity and general lack of quality. The difference a few standards makes.
@S008
ReplyDeleteSomeone already did. It's called Through The Eyes Of Another Pony, and it's epic. At least top 5 of all fics here on EqD.
Fuck it! I give up. I speak English as a native and read at least 100 books a year, but I'm not an English major and I can't keep up with all those damn punctuation rules. No wonder they didn't want my fic, even with three editors helping me I couldn't catch every issue it had.
ReplyDeleteThanks for shaking me back into reality with this omnibus. I've realized I have a long way to go before I'm ready to write my crossover fic, so I'm going to work on basic stuff first. Maybe someday (years?) I'll be ready for the big time, but until then I salute the writeponies who can pull off the amazing work we see on EqD on a daily basis.
ReplyDelete@OtterMatt
ReplyDeleteIf you can't help but fail to notice that I said I was familiar with it in the sense that I subconsciously use it, but do not know the technical terms used to define it (not everypony studies the English language as intently as you do), then you have no place to claim your literary skills are any better than mine.
After a quick google, I found that I was already familiar with it, to the point that it is burned in my brain. All I lacked was the term used to describe it.
Just because I don't know the name of it doesn't mean I'm ignorant of it's function.
You know, I see all of the people going "oh man guess I'm not good enough for this" after reading the omnibus and I kind of have to wonder, just, like... really? I mean I've read it and all the advice honestly strikes me as really basic, common sense stuff that should pretty much go without saying.
ReplyDelete*reads the Omnibus*
ReplyDelete*reads section on "Hazardous Terrain"*
...huh. Sounds like you pre-readers wouldn't have touched Silent Ponyville: Blood Chronicles with a ten foot pole under your own jurisdiction.
Good thing Star 6 stories are exempt from your opinions.
A bit of humility and open-mindedness may serve you pre-readers well, I think. Just because you don't like a certain genre doesn't mean the stories in it are all crap and that you can be lazy by judging a book by its cover. XD
@banjo2E
ReplyDeleteYeah, I second that. The advice about trying to avoid repetition is sound, but their example - well, if I had a quid for every time I've had to suffer through some combination of at least three of the words [Ponyville's|Premiere|Pink|Party|Pony] I wouldn't be bothering with my student loans.
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeletePlease re-read the introductory text just below Hazardous Terrain. Notice how it says that these are subjects that "can lose an author his or her audience?" Also note how it doesn't mention "we automatically reject out of hand any story with too many of these in the same story."
I'm failing to see where we're judging books by covers or being lazy, especially considering grimdark and crossover stories, as well as stories with author's notes, memes, OCs, shipping, and spin-off stories ALL continue to be published on the blog if they merit posting.
Wow. This thing makes the fanfiction writing process seem terrifying.
ReplyDeleteI guess I shouldn't worry too much though. I'm not afraid of constructive criticism, and my one existing story is doing really well.
There are good methods to try to prevent a whole lot of re-edits during the initial submission process though.
@A Pony Farce
ReplyDeleteWhile I can't speak for everypony, in my case, I mentioned feeling slightly discouraged not because of what was contained within the omnibus itself, but due to what it made me realize I was doing with my crossover story ideas, specifically in terms of how close some ideas were to the source material. Despite trying to avoid that pitfall, I had fallen into it anyway, and since so much of my framework of my outline depended upon those ideas, I had to scrap the entire thing and start over.
So for me, the discouraging feeling was in feeling like some of my effort I had already spent on developing the story was wasted, even though the story is likely to turn out much better as a result.
But you're definitely right that a lot of what was stated within the Omnibus SHOULD be automatic. Unfortunately, due to the nature of fanfiction, it isn't. Very few fanfic writers are professional writers, so the sorts of things that would be automatic for a professional writer aren't automatic for a fanfiction writer.
@Cupcakes Nom
ReplyDelete*rollseyes*
I've already caught you guys deliberately ignoring/refusing to read anything that TOUCHES Cupcakes on multiple occasions, I strongly suspect you all of bearing a hate against Black Comedy even though I can't prove anything, and I KNOW for a fact that you guys have shot down things that you recommended for review previously, so don't try to act like you don't. Simply because a rule isn't ENFORCED doesn't mean it isn't frequently followed.
But meh. Feel free to hate fics that deliberately play with boundaries, and feel free to bear prejudice and show no tolerance for genres that you find unpleasant. You're only doing your loyal fans and yourselves a disservice, after all.
And, for the record? That bit about recursive fanfiction being of lower quality is, in the most polite terms I can use to describe it, absolute bullshit. It takes an IMMENSE amount of talent to provoke that particular kind of creativity in someone- if anything, it's is a sign that the fic it's based on is good, rather than being indicative of the quality of the recursive fanfic itself.
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteThe submission rules specifically state that sending in a Cupcakes-style story, or anything resembling it, is strongly frowned upon. The quote on the Submissions page (whose rules pre-readers didn't decide on) is "Don't send Cupcakes stuff. Seriously. It's just going to get tossed in the trash." Ergo, we as pre-readers don't even SEE it; it gets tossed before it's even forwarded to us. If you just mean stories that reference Cupcakes in a meme-ish manner then you're wrong; there are stories that have made it up with small Cupcakes references.
Personally I love black comedy if it's done well. Groundhog Day, and all its epic series of attempted suicides, is one of my favorite movies of all time. I know I'm not the only one who likes well-written black comedy on staff.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with the "shot down things that you recommended for review" part.
Guess what? I personally DON'T like Grimdark? Guess what? I personally review some anyway. Guess what? I've returned most for review, because the overwhelming majority of stories in EVERY genre get returned for review. Guess what? I've actually approved grimdark stories because they deserved to be approved. Guess what? I'm not the only pre-reader on staff who can claim all of the above. So yes, please, continue to label me and my fellow volunteers, who do this purely because we can, prejudicial and intolerant. It's very charming.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to recursive fanfiction, but if you're referring to non-typical story-telling methodologies being turned down... it takes rather serious skill to write something like that and still have it be something that we would want to share on Equestria Daily. If that's not what you're talking about then I am not sure what you mean.
Dang.
ReplyDeleteSo rather than saying Twilight is walking down a hall in a part of the castle she's never been in before, SHE HAS TO SAY IT?
That can't be right.
%$#@!
Any artist capable of making two five frame comics of Celestia and Twilight Sparkle talking to each other, message jayessell at deviantart
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteHas it occurred to you that there's a very good reason fics similar to Cupcakes are generally rejected?
Cupcakes, and fics like it, are a STAIN on the community as a whole. They insult the very nature of the show, the reasons for why we enjoy the show. Equestria Daily, as a fansite for the show, must uphold certain standards for the community, and that should include excluding fanfiction that only exists to degrade what it is that makes the show so great.
That's not the same as disliking a genre as a whole, by the way. I see plenty of Grimdark fics on this website all the time. But that's because the fics that are allowed onto EQ Daily aren't insulting the very nature of the show, the way Cupcakes and its ilk do. One of the most popular and read FIM fanfics on this website is Fallout Equestria, the very definition of Grimdark, and it engenders a lot of fanfiction based upon it, fanfiction also published on EQ Daily.
So honestly, I don't think your complaints have any real merit to them whatsoever.
According to the document in its current form, the pre-reader is always right. Need to cite sources? Nonsense. Their word is law. One pre-reader contradicts another pre-reader? Impossible. A space-time paradox would've consumed the planet before such an event can occur.
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree that authors need to take criticism in stride, the way the document was formed really painted pre-readers as the end-all judges of how good a story is, and they should never be questioned.
Also, the definition of Mary Sue was off. Anything that puts a character above the rest in a given competitive field, through which this excellence is not thoroughly explained or justified, is grounds to scream Sue. This condition is exacerbated by either constant barriers that are solved by said character's superior ability or endless references to it in some other form.
The current definition given leaves too many holes for potential authors to fall in to. This generalized definition is essentially a catch-all.
@Clock Keeper
ReplyDeleteThe entire document is just a "watch out for this stuff and you'll be a better writer" guide. It's not intended as a "if you do any of these things expect to never get on EqD." If it was then it'd be lying, since plenty of stories on EqD have any number of these issues in them, either in very small amounts or with enough skill that it doesn't matter.
The majority of feedback that is sent back to authors is intended as just that: feedback. True, SOME of the stuff sent back is, "change this, or the story is unpostable," but that's the exception and not the rule.
If I send someone a review with 8 points of contention, on average I'd say 3 of them are firm suggestions, 3 of them are "take this into consideration and do what you will" and 2 are just personal feelings about things. It's true that if the author just resubmits without doing ANYTHING suggested and doesn't say why then we'll reject it, but we're definitely open to back-and-forth with the author if they have things to say about our feedback. And we often call on each other for extra opinions on things that need them.
... While it is nice to see standards being upheld. I am a bit disappointed about the crossover thing.
ReplyDeleteAlso, about the omnibus, I think the category of Mary-Sue is just too damn broad. I can sort of understand alicorns (even though to me, that is borderline) but mane/tail/coat colors? Yeah, colors don't make a Sue.
I (along with several of my real world friends) consider myself a fairly good writer but I am not liking my chances of seeing my fan fic Into an Uncharted Planet on EqD.
The fan fic itself is an "exotic crossover" that is based on the play-by-post roleplay universe known as the Insane Café. Despite my attempts at making it accessible to those without knowledge of the Insane Café-verse,
@Cupcakes Nom *sigh* Oh boy.
ReplyDelete...let's address each issue one by one, shall we?
As for Cupcakes, that fic, like it or not, is ICONIC at this point. And stuff dealing with it STRONGLY, but NOT in and of itself, still has story potential, because Cupcakes was an objectiveless, unclosed story- meaning there are interesting concepts that DEAL with that particular continuity that have been left unanswered. Like, WHY is Pinkie killing ponies? Is there a psychological or supernatural reason for it? Was there an event in the past that lead up to her actions? Were the murders ever discovered? Was she ever brought to justice? The list of unanswered questions goes on- many of which make for interesting subjects when done with tact. And you throw them in the garbage without a single glance. That's poor form for ANY editing staff, professional or no, and a very shameful practice to adopt, no matter HOW many poorly written fictions you receive.
As for Black Comedy, I am specifically referring to Happy Tree Friends kind of humor- that which blurs the line of cartoon violence (no gore no pain no blood) versus realistic violence (vice versa).
For shooting things down? I mean there have been several occasions where perfectly good concepts have nearly bitten the dust and demotivated aspiring authors when they follow your recommendations and resubmit it only to find that none of you would even touch it. I've had this experience and I know other authors who have had it as well.
And as for your claims? Doing it once doesn't make it the rule and not the exception. And guess what? It takes ALL of you not touching a fic or simply replying "AXE IT, SETH" to kill an aspiring writer's ambition.
And you must realize that in order to DETECT serious skill, you actually DO have to READ IT FIRST. I have authored a recursive fanfic posted on this site- not under its own post, though, since the original author liked it enough to put it up as a fan-written side story, in similar vein to Progress' side stories.
@Drakon
ReplyDeleteDisappointed by what crossover thing? It's considered something to "tread lightly" about. Nothing there says "we turn down all crossovers." We don't. Neither do we turn down all stories with powerful OCs, but we DO have carefully honed Mary Sue meters and have helped people tune down their OCs so that they're postable. So just keep writing, and if what you're writing is GOOD and appropriate for blog readers then it could very well go up!
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, but I have too much respect for what little free time I have in my life to hold a conversation with someone who begins their replies with stuff like "*sigh* Oh boy" as if talking with me is a chore.
Good luck with your endeavors. Good day, sir.
@Cupcakes Nom
ReplyDeleteWow. That sure proved that you don't avoid reading things you personally beleive are worthless.
I feel so ashamed and humiliated. How could I EVER have doubted your work ethic and humility?
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteYou're spending your free time insulting people that volunteer their free time maintaining some type of quality standard on a site you enjoy, because in your mind they don't do it well enough.
You're a really awesome guy, aren't you? Nevermind, don't answer that. Re-reading your previous comments, I think I already know how you'd answer that.
@Kyronea Normally, I would counter your argument, but when you use terms like "stain on the community", "exists solely to degrade", "and its ilk", "insulting the very nature of", and "must uphold certain standards" when describing literature of any sort, you aren't helping your case that you DON'T label fanfiction based on subject rather than content, mine Fuhrer.
ReplyDeleteSo I'll let this one go.
@Drakon:
ReplyDeleteTrying to make it accessible for the uninitiated? That is definitely Doing It Right. Don't get discouraged, send it on in if you feel it's up to snuff!
@NotAGoodUsername360:
I'd like to touch on one thing which you may be mistaken on. There are many, many pre-readers, over 30 at this point. When you resubmit after making changes, you are not guaranteed to get the same pre-reader reviewing it a second time. We all have different review styles, different strengths, and different things we look for. Thus, it is entirely possible to be turned down by a second pre-reader after making the changes deemed necessary by the first.
To speculate a bit, as I do not know which fanfic would have been the one rejected, it is also possible that the first review found a few things to change and wanted to see more, then found the continuance of the story to be unsatisfactory or otherwise unpostable. Sometimes the first review will turn a story back for systematic mechanics issues, and the second review will delve into further chapters, only to find material that is, again, unpostable. I can't speak to your case, but these are the facts about how the pre-reader system works. It isn't perfect, and I apologize for that, but we try to do the best we can with what we have.
@Daffodil Oh, they do do it well enough.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that they're not very humble about it, and have come to believe themselves incapable of error.
A dosage of humility right where it is needed most is beneficial for everyone in the end, no matter how much it hurts while the pressure is being applied.
Plus, they don't realize that they're killing creativity without meaning to, which needs to be corrected, regardless.
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteSo, what you're saying is, your idea of what is and is not an acceptable way to review literature is correct, and theirs is not.
You know what? You're absolutely right. They do hold themselves in too high a regard. How dare anyone think that their way is the only way to do things.
Only an arrogant cockbag would do something like that. Thank you for helping me see the light, sir.
@Present Perfect That's understandable, but unfortunately, it's also unacceptable.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing, I repeat, NOTHING more destructive to creativity than to get nothing but a flat-out, reasonless rejection with no idea why.
Imagine if YOU were on the receiving end of a letter like THIS for something you worked hard on:
"Most of the pre-readers didn't even want to look at it, and the one who did literally told me to axe it. Sorry."
Would you feel like ever try writing again after something like that?
I sure as hell didn't.
Just think twice before spitting on faces when reviewing fics, OK?
Well, since we've wheeled out the Godwin, allow me to retort. I'm reminded of a story about Austria, and its gradual invasion by the Nazi forces. It featured a great many musical numbers, and my favorite was 'Do Re Mi'. Sing along if you know the tune!
ReplyDeleteLet's start at the very beginning. A very good place to start.
When you post you begin with courtesy.
When you reply you should use decency.
Decency.
In your first words we all should see:
Decency.
Decency and compe... wait, that may be too much.
"D" for "Don't" and "Douchebag", dear.
"E" for squealing fanboy glee.
"C" for "Calm" and "Courtesy".
"E" for Eager editing!
"N" for Never giving up.
"C" for Criticism's gleam!
"Y" for Yearning to improve!
And we'll post on E-Q-D!
Oh, shucks. Looks like they're curtain calling the Von Trapps. We have to make our getaway now!
@Daffodil
ReplyDeleteYou're entirely misunderstanding what he's saying. The gist of it is that the pre-readers often aren't as likely to give things a chance as they say they are, and can indeed even be cruel about it. At times, they don't even bother to give a response, or even let they author know they've read the author's work.
I have to ask, are you an author?
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteMine Fuhrer? Really? Come on. You can be more inventive than that.
I used the terms I did because I felt they were a fair representation of how the community in general feels about the subject of fics like Cupcakes. How the community feels about the subject should be taken into account when it comes to a fansite like EQ Daily that is dedicated to sharing quality creations by people within the community with others in the community, creations that respect the show.
If you want to read things like Cupcakes, almost any other fanfiction site will take them. I've seen countless numbers of them on FIMFiction, for instance. They just don't belong on EQ Daily, and nor should they.
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteGood lord. NAGU, my first fic was utterly decimated. I was accused of just about every fault in the book, and the fic STILL isn't done being re-written. I was also accused of padding Zecora's rhymes for word count in that very same fic!
So, yes.. I know how it feels to get the rejection. You know what? I got over myself and wrote a better story. My VERY next story was 'Shaman'... and it hit 6 star. (It's since slunk down a bit, but it's still doing well).
So... yeah. Best advice? Suck it up and prove everyone wrong by writing a better story.
S'how I got to be a pre-reader.
-mech
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteAm I an author? That's a tough question. I write, but not nearly enough as I'd like to. So I'll give you a "Maybe".
I do understand what NAGU is saying, but at the same time, he's more than a bit jaded. While I'll admit that the rejection he received is terribly inappropriate, some of the things he's saying are, frankly, ridiculous. Killing creativity? I'm sorry, but the pre-readers are some of the most open minded readers I've seen. Easily more open minded than the majority of EqD regulars (you know, the mature individuals that 1star stories that ship couples they don't approve of).
The lack of notice to authors has nothing to do with disliking the author or their story. It's a busy job. You can't imagine how many stories are in the queue at any given time. Not everyone gets special care and attention, and while that sucks, it kind of comes with the territory.
Wow. A lot of entitlement, opinion-as-fact, snobbery, and absolutes in that advice guide.
ReplyDeleteOf course, considering the source, it's not all that surprising...
People also forget they don't have to read something they know they won't care for. Don't want dark? Horror? Sad? Shipping? Grimdark? WHO FUCKING CARES, THERE ARE OTHERS WHO WANT AND ENJOY IT, NOBODY'S FORCING YOU TO READ IT.
@Kyronea
ReplyDeleteAnd now you speak for the community at all times? O_o
Just give it up, you pre-readers. You DO make mistakes and its OK. We all do. Nobody's perfect.
Just don't act like you are accepting of anything and everything when in fact you are as Two-Faced as the Ponyarchive people.
@The Mechanic
ReplyDeleteYou make a fair point, but unfortunately it was not rejected for quality, it was rejected (cruelly and unjustifiably I might add) simply because it was an MST3K of Cupcakes. I've read it myself, it was pretty hilarious. And I'm an author myself. It also got him into an MST3K group. So quality was never his problem.
@Something To Quack About
ReplyDeleteI'm reading back through the omnibus right now for 'entitlement, opinion-as-fact, snobbery, and absolutes'. I'll report back in a minute.
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteYeah, I read that fic. Enjoyed it too.
Unfortunately, the entire premise was mocking a story that someone else wrote without their permission. That doesn't really fly around here.
My only gripe with the whole system is, i'm fairly sure my fic has been rerouted to the dustbin. It's been roughly a month and i've gotten nothing but radio silence. Ergo, my fic is not wanted.
ReplyDelete@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteI think you misunderstand my position. I'm not a pre-reader myself. I'm just a member of the community who feels the pre-readers have been doing a fantastic job, and who disagrees with you on what is acceptable to post on EQ Daily and what isn't.
The pre-readers are volunteers. They work very hard at what they do. Do they make mistakes? Of course they do.
But whether they make mistakes or not is rather irrelevant to the subject at hand. The issue we are discussing is whether or not Cupcakes and material based upon it and/or similar to it are acceptable on EQ Daily, and I do not feel they are, nor do I think the community as a whole feels they are acceptable.
Does that occasionally result in the denial of something that might otherwise be interesting to read? Sure. But those are rare exceptions.
a fanfic for a fanfic? We need to go deeper.
ReplyDeleteAlso, way to heavily encourage purple prose. Because overly fancy, flowery, long-winded, pretentious narratives are automatically good and professional on merit of sounding like they consider themselves smart.
ReplyDelete@Daffodil
ReplyDeleteThat's not why it's rejected though. If it was, they wouldn't have said what they said, unless they're even worse then I thought. The point is, their response was rude at best, and insulting at worst. And he never said anything attacking them until they attacked him, making your initial response to him uncalled for.
Okay. I've just re-read the omnibus. Honestly? I can't see evidence of jackbooted thuggery no matter how hard I look. Even in the grumpiest sections, I see 'can', 'may', and 'generally'.
ReplyDeleteIf there's a place where you feel the document has gone 'too far', I openly and eagerly request that you email me (this name at Gmail) with the current phrasing and your suggestion. I will wait a day or so and then collect up the suggestions and review the work.
Please note: I would prefer you do not spam me with questions about reviews, stories, queue depth, etc. If you do have questions on how the Pre-Readers do what they do, I suggest visiting our thread over on PonyChan. http://www.ponychan.net/chan/fic/res/68613.html
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteHere's something you don't seem to understand:
The pre-readers are never in direct communication with the authors. Everything gets sent through Seth, Cereal, and Phoe (whoever's doing email at the time).
Occasionally something will get lost in translation. It happens. I understand that he feels upset, but at some point you just need to let go. I mean, jesus, his story was rejected six months ago and he still has a vendetta against the pre-readers? They're not perfect, but they're not the creativity stifling nazis that he seems to think they are.
Regarding my initial response: I had no idea why he was lashing out at the pre-readers. To me it seems like one guy that doesn't like the way things are run and decides to insult anyone who disagrees. And, oddly enough, it still seems that way.
@A Pony Farce
ReplyDelete" If you're not going to put in the thought and effort and actually produce a quality work of fiction, why are you bothering to write at all?"
Because they have fun ding it without all the worrying and fretting? OH MY GOD. PEOPLE DO DIFFERENT THINGS FOR DIFFERENT REASONS THAN YOU. WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK.
There is a world outside of you with minds outside of yours... you're so simple, so narrow-minded.... it's really disgusting.
@Kyronea
ReplyDeleteHonestly, this whole debate is about how they have treated people in the past, not over what is or isn't acceptable, and hardly at all what they let on the site. I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you don't have the frame of reference to really see the underlying issue here.
However, to counter your point, the fact that they no longer look at those things on a case by case basis is regrettable. There are many interesting stories based around Cupcakes. And just because something is Cupcakes related DOES NOT make it a gorefic.
@Something To Quack About
ReplyDeleteWait, wait.
They have standards for what they want on that website, and that's "closed minded and disgusting"?
You understand that people are free to submit their stories to any number of other sites that aren't as strict when it comes to quality control? It's not like anyone's saying "THIS STORY IS BAD NEVER SHOW IT TO ANYONE". They're simply stating that it's not up to the standard of quality they maintain for their site.
I'm really not getting the "disgusting" part of that.
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteFair enough, then. I only wanted to address the issue of Cupcakes anyway, and I've made my point, so I shall step out.
@NotAGoodUsername360:
ReplyDeleteWe don't spit on faces. I'm sorry you got a less than helpful response; see other replies for why. We're working on it.
@Daffodil The problem, my friend, is that I nearly missed out on some of the best months of my life because they didn't even bother to say WHY.
ReplyDeleteHow can you fix something when you don't know what's broken?
And can you trust yourself not the same mistake again?
These are what race through your mind when the people that read hundreds of crappy fanfics don't even dignify you with anything more than a red "REJECTED" stamp. ESPECIALLY when previously responses WERE had.
You may indeed get 50 fics a day, but you also have 30 staff members, no? There is no reason why you should ALL feel overstressed to the point where you can't even write a few quick notes on what's wrong before sending back to Seth. Especially when your verdict in question is the equivalent of "This is shit".
That's the sort of thing that makes you cry, man. And I nearly gave up writing forever because of it.
That shouldn't happen with pre-readers.
Ever.
No matter how stressed you are.
That's simply unforgivable.
I agree with 100% of what is in the document. i can stnd t wen ppl tlk lke ds an xpkt ppl 2 undrstnd dem
ReplyDelete@Present Perfect
ReplyDeleteMaybe you don't mean to.
But trust me.
You do.
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteWell'p, first off, if you really were that broken up over it, I feel there may be slightly more significant than a single rejected story going on. That's not exactly a reasonable response. Yes, I've had people tell me my work sucked before. No, I didn't lose months of my life over it.
Second off, yes there are 30 pre-readers. All of which have jobs, school, families, and lives. Reviewing stories takes time, and particularly around this time of year, most don't have time to spare.
Third: We don't say "REJECTED" with no reason why. As I mentioned above, something was lost in translation between the pre-reader and you. It happens. It sucks, but it happens, and we're working on fixing it.
I ask you to please let this little vendetta go. Yeah. we're not perfect. But we're trying to be better. Just give it time.
@Daffodil "Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:
ReplyDeletethe purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
the nature of the copyrighted work;
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work"
Besides, at first it was rejected for formatting issues, but when it was corrected, I got nothing but a pre-reader's equivalent to a C&D.
@Daffodil
ReplyDeleteOh, I know how it works, and that's a problem in and of itself. And his case is one case, but it's not the only case that he's aware of. It's happened enough that there's a problem. And there's plenty of people who agree.
And regardless, your initial response was uncalled for. Insulting people isn't cool.
@Something To Quack About
ReplyDeleteThere's something to be said for just fucking around and writing shit without worrying about whether it's any good or not, but if that's what you want to do, then there really isn't any point in trying to get it posted on a site like EqD. People like reading good stories, and if you don't care about writing a good story for them, then why should they bother reading your work at all?
@Daffodil
ReplyDeleteYes. Yes you do say REJECTED with no reason why, if you even bother to let the author know you've read it. And I did not realize you were a pre-reader before, and the fact that you are alarms me.
If you can't be bothered to act cordial towards people outside of pre-reading, why would you be bothered to do so WHILE pre-reading?
And you're not the first instance of this trend, I am sad to say. This is an issue that needs to be fixed.
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteNeither is his constant complaining about it either, honestly.
He also needs to consult a lawyer.. fair use doesn't cover what he's presenting it as.
This does.
United States copyright law
Significant amounts of copyrightable creative works such as motion pictures, television programs, music, and computer gaming works are produced in the United States. In addition, a significant amount of fan fiction is created in the United States. For these reasons, although every nation's law is different and different laws may apply to different works of fan fiction, U.S. law is often centrally relevant when determining the legality of writing and/or sharing fan fiction.
Under U.S. Copyright law, the legality of a given work of fan fiction will depend principally on three legal doctrines: (1) copyrightability of the underlying source work; (2) the derivative work right; and (3) fair use.
To have copyright protection under U.S. law, a work must be an "original [work] of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression . . . from which [it] can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.[1] Such works of authorship include but are not limited to literature, music, plays, pictures and architectural works. Copyright can NOT be applied to ideas, concepts, facts or other broad principles regardless of whether they are expressed in a tangible medium or otherwise. Copyright goes into effect automatically, even if a work is not published.[2] For works created in 1978 or later, copyright protection persists for the life of the author plus 70 years; in the case of an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from publication, or for 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first.[3]
@Daffodil
ReplyDeleteIf it's the first and ONLY thing you've ever written... yeah. Yeah, it IS that bad.
Look, you guys CLEARLY need to realize that there are some subjectivity issues that you guys need to work out- you can't rate a Grimdark under the same rubric as a Shipping or Comedy... they have DIFFERENT subtlties that need to be observed, and NOTHING deserves to be thrown away at first glance, because ALL good MLP fanfiction belongs here REGARDLESS of content. It sounds as though you need more pre-readers with different tastes so that you can avoid pit-holes and temptations like what has been going on in the past.
That's all I'm saying.
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteSorry, hit enter too soon.
Basically, claiming fair use is not the end-all and be-all. Just because he claims fair use of something does not mean it automatically trumps copyrighted material.
Fair use is part of it, assuredly. But not all. So, in the case of the Cupcakes lampooning... since he did not have permission from the original author, it was not permitted to post.
Just as I can't take an artist's work and do with it as I choose under 'fair use', so too can he not take a written work and do the same.
-mech
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteNo, we don't say "REJECTED" with no reason why. You've made it fairly clear that you haven't read any of my other posts explaining this. I'm glad you have your opinions and don't let the facts get in the way.
And on the subject of acting cordial, I'm sorry, I don't take kindly to being insulted. As such, I responded rudely, and for that I apologize. But, hey, you don't act the same at work as you do with your friends, do you? Consider this my free time.
And I will agree on your final point. This is an issue that needs to be fixed. Which is why we're finding ways to fix if. If members of the community wish to offer helpful suggestions, we have a thread on /fic/ for it. But if they're just going to sit back and talk about how awful a job we're doing, well, forgive me if I ignore those individuals.
C'mon, guys, really? The "that doesn't fly here" remark wasn't about copyright law, it was about a (somewhat misguided, in my opinion, but to each their own) standard of courtesy.
ReplyDelete@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteI'm going to go out on a limb and say that works which go beyond a certain level of explicitness DON'T belong on the site, regardless of quality, for the exact same reason that you don't see graphic sex or horribly mutilated ponies in the fanart posts.
@The Mechanic
ReplyDeleteAt least NAGU didn't attack anyone's character right off the bat. And besides, he's not the only one who feels this way, and while I respect that you are all volunteers, pointing out flaws in the system is not a bad thing. You guys expect others to be open to criticism, so shouldn't you be open to it yourselves?
Oh, and if you're gonna bring the law into this, then all fanfic writers should just pack up and go home, since fanfic is not technically allowed by copyright law. And that's besides the point, as you never told NAGU that to begin with.
@A Pony Farce
ReplyDeleteI agree, and also need to clarify something:
The blogponies and the pre-readers are not the same entities. We review fics. The blogponies decide what content should and shouldn't be accepted. If you want to argue THAT point, you're barking up the wrong Flutter-tree.
@The Mechanic
ReplyDeleteOBJECTION!
*deskslam*
PROTECTION UNDER PARODY IS, INDEED, A LAW! The addition of satirical commentary CHANGES the work into something legally new!
Watch Know Your Meme's video entry on the Hitler Downfall videos, they go into more detail...
@Ace2401
ReplyDeleteActually, NAGU brought the law into it by quoting 'Fair use' legalese.
I simply pointed out that he didn't look far enough; that copyright can (and usually does) trump fair use except under certain circumstances.
It's arguable who insulted whom first and how, but you've made it abundantly clear who you wish to support, yes?
-mech
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteValid point, that. As I recall.. didn't Larry Niven of the Man-Kzin wars sue and lose to a parody writer?
Regardless.. legal it might be, but remember how bad you felt about the rejection?
Imagine how your parodying somepony else's work would make THEM feel.
Can you truly not see that this might be a liiiitle bit of the pot calling the kettle black?
(Sorry, I do a really bad Fluttershy)
Just as that cut-throat review was right awful of us to send (And I do apologize for it!) so too would it be pretty rotten of us to allow parodies of stories posted here without permission.
At least, that's my take on it.
I could be wrong!
-mech
@Daffodil
ReplyDeleteYou may not do it every time, but you have done it before. I'm sorry, as I did not make clear what I meant. I know this for a fact because it has happened to me. I had to go to Phoe to get a response, and after I got a response from her I did not pursue the issue further.
And as for NAGU's methods, yes, he was rather inflammatory at first to get your attention. However, he later make perfectly reasonable posts to show his concern.
And I am glad you agree on that point, because all that we really want is that you see that you guys aren't perfect and could improve, and pursue said improvement.
@The Mechanic
ReplyDeleteNot really, since I am a true believer in Affectionate Parody.
Comedy has no sacred cows, because if it did, writers would be obligated to poke them and see if they still float.
So, I'm personally all for parodies of my work. In fact, I'd even encourage it. *shrug*
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteWell, you certainly are willing to stand behind your convictions, and I've got to respect that!
How about this, then? Why don't we agree that I'm a bit soft-headed at times and that I at least would really appreciate getting an author's permission before their work is parodied? I know I'd feel like right shit if someone tore my stories apart and I really don't like seeing that happen to anyone else either. Unless they ask for it, of course. THEN it's all fun and games!
-mech
I'd like to file a motion for Pony Time.
ReplyDelete<3
@The Mechanic
ReplyDeleteIndeed, that should have been abundantly clear from the beginning. I am fully on NAGU's side, as A: I feel that I have received sup-par treatment from the pre-readers in the past, and want to use this as an opportunity to try and provide constructive criticism, and B: I am good friends with NAGU.
And yes, am I aware that law was brought into this by NAGU, but that was directed at him as well to an extent. I was just pointing out how it doesn't matter to begin with.
@NotAGoodUsername360:
ReplyDeleteNot everyone shares your view, I hope you can see that.
Again, it's a case of, "It's not something we can put on Equestria Daily." You can still write it; there are lots of other fanfic sites with large, active userbases where it can have a home.
@NotAGoodUsername360
ReplyDeleteI don't see Cupcakes as a "stain", but I have to agree with the restriction imposed against stories based solely on it. Cupcakes was originally written for shock value, and was soon used for trolling (The title is misleading, after all). The effect it had when it was introduced prompted a huge response. Some people stepped up PinkieDash shipping and others wrote happy endings. Meanwhile, grimdark lovers took the fic as a springboard for writing even more gorey sequels, and gorefics of their own design.
The overall reaction around Cupcakes when it was first introduced was huge. Nowadays, there are far worse things out there that makes Cupcakes a stroll in the park, but back then, when EqD made the decision to include Cupcake's in it's archives, things had to be done to keep things from getting out of hand.
Simply put, the ban upon Cupcake's sequels and the like is due to the fact there were multiple versions of them, and all of them ranged from good to bad quality. Rather than stomach all the grimdark (and bad writing), it was a better decision to just give the infamous tale a post and leave it at that.
Nowadays, however, there are pre-readers who could probably take all that gore, but the ship has since sailed on Cupcakes, and the ban has just been left in place.
@The Mechanic
ReplyDeleteMeh. It's just that some authors cannot be contacted, and some are too busy to check it over.
In the case of parody, for ME, personally, it is better to ask forgiveness than permission. Just IMO.
@Daffodil
Sustained. *bangs gavel*
@Present Perfect
ReplyDeleteThat's fine and he can respect that. However, he was given a rude rejection with no explanation, and that was never brought up until today.