I will copy paste it all below for those that don't want to go digging for it. Hopefully this gives you an idea of what they are contending with over there!
So go read it after the break.
I encourage you guys to peruse the forum through and through to find the number of times people have told me that the scope was far bigger than we could possibly imagine, only to find that we'd taken the chance and that the hundreds of thousands they promised resulted in hundreds...or...a couple thousand.
But okay.
For the sake of argument... For a four-disc complete first season, we'd probably need somewhere in the realm of 30,000-50,000 "sold through" for there to be the chance of a second full-season volume. That means we didn't just sell them to stores (because they can return their copies for a complete refund anytime they want; and the more they return, the fewer they buy of the next volume--if any, at all), but we sold them to stores and the stores then sold them to you, the consumers.
This is when you say, "Oh, there are WAY more than 30,000-50,000 fans! Piece of cake!"
Okay.
I have no problem with this. I'm also a big fan of Community, but I don't need to own it. And I'm a DVD/Blu-ray collector! Just because there are incredible fans, their numbers don't traditionally translate to guaranteed sales. There are a few notable exceptions to this rule: Star Wars and Star Trek have particularly large followings that also sell a lot of product. But even with all of the merchandise those franchise have sold, imagine the number of people who love them without ever having bought an action figure or book or collectible lithograph, etc. The percentage of Brony fans willing to BUY a $29.99-$39.99 complete season set must be high enough to warrant us spending the thousands of dollars it takes to produce, manufacture and market the set.
Here's the biggest catch of all.
Every one of those sets need to have been sold within North America. We are only the North American distributor for My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Hasbro has accepted our offer of an advance to license this show. But they also have the option of accepting advances for licenses in every other territory in the world. Again, while they're clearly creative and love the content, they're also a business that needs to profit in order to stay in business. One of the best ways to do that is to break up the rights between territories. Pesky to you, I understand. But necessary to people like us. After all, we don't want companies from other countries encroaching on what we paid a high price for. So why should we encroach on another's territory? Does that mean you can't buy it from Amazon or whatever? Probably not. From what I understand, Amazon couldn't care less where you live. But we can't sell it to you directly, which is why...
"...can't you just make it available online for fans?"
There's another reason why we can't do this. For starters, we don't have some lowly temp here to burn DVDs upon your request. We manufacture everything we produce. So that means there's a minimum number that has to be manufactured and, believe it or not, the fewer you make, the more expensive it is. While I have no doubt there are enough Bronies out there to warrant a complete first season, are there enough that are A.) aware of the internet-only release? B.) Willing to buy an internet-only release? C.) living in North America and willing to buy the internet-only release? Again, believe it or not, not all Bronies hang out on the internet forums dedicated to My Little Pony. Not all Bronies even realize they're called "Bronies." If we can't get to them to let them know one of their favorite shows is available on DVD, how are we going to sell enough to validate spending the money and then expressly going against the wishes of the retailers, who've requested single discs releases that now have direct competition with a complete season set that's only available online?
There's also the question of digital rights. We're not guaranteed digital rights to every property we license. We try. God knows we try. But studios are eager to keep those for themselves. After all, it's yet another source of revenue for them. Makes perfect sense. I have no idea if we have the digital rights to these. It's not my department. If we do, maybe you'll see them appear on iTunes or something. Not sure. But, again, it would likely only be the episodes we're releasing at any given time. Why would we want to compete with ourselves by providing you with the full season digitally, if we're in need of selling a high number of single-disc releases in order to continue making them??
There are TONS of factors fans don't think about. They just walk into Best Buy or Target and get upset when they see single-disc sets. Or they don't see anything at all and that makes them even more upset. They don't understand the money that goes into producing the series and they don't understand the money we need to make back in order to KEEP producing the series.
Hasbro created a series for very young audiences. Turns out adults like it, too. But this isn't The Clone Wars. Or even Transformers: Prime. I'm sorry, gang. But I just don't see a high liklihood that a "collectible" set for adult fans is going to get made anytime soon. I'll happily cross my fingers for ya'. I'm enjoying the show and would love to work on a more complete version. But until something like that happens, I hope you enjoy the single disc releases as they're made available.
Hope this helps answer some questions.
Brian
129 comments:
Sweet
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm pretty damn sure there's more than 30,000 of us.
ReplyDeleteOh boy! DVD!
ReplyDeleteYeah, pretty much as I woulda figured it, TBH!
ReplyDeleteWelp. Back to watching the whole series so far on iTunes...
ReplyDeleteWhile it is a bad situation, I have to hand it to Brian and Shout Factory for being so awesome about it.
ReplyDeleteI know this fandom is pretty large, but even *I* never saw it big enough to warrant a full season DVD release.
ReplyDeleteread this a while back, but i just wanna know if the single discs will have repeat episodes or not.
ReplyDeleteShout Factory seem like a cool company, I'll admit that I've been quite upset over the single disk DVDs that have been poking their noses out but after this clarification I can see where they're coming from.
ReplyDeleteAnd, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've NEVER seen online petitions make a budge in anything.
ReplyDelete@Jelfes:
ReplyDeleteLet's be realistic. How many if those would actually walk into Target and actually buy the set for $30 to $40 bucks?
Words of a man who wishes he could help but is confronted with the unfortunate realities of business and economies of scale on a daily basis addressing an audience that is probably wholly unaware of these aspects of economics. It's a very, very broad subject with a diverse set of factors.
ReplyDeleteThe price of making a disk stamp master (literally a piece of glass with grooves carved with the binary data) is essentially a fixed cost. The more disks that end up being sold, the quicker this fixed cost can be paid for, which is why it's more expensive to make just a few disks rather than hundreds and hundreds; the cost isn't in making the disks themselves as much as the cost of the equipment.
Sucks, but that's the reality of it all; my sympathies to the Shoutcast crew, since they obviously do want to help but the constant pestering of digital fans doesn't translate into direct sales opportunities.
So start a Kickstarter.com page and get everypony in the fandom to advertise it everywhere.
ReplyDeleteNo, seriously. Kickstarter this sonuvabitch. If it doesn't reach the minimum cost then it doesn't happen. If it does then everyone who wants a copy has already pre-ordered it!
Some food for thought indeed. However, it looks like they don't have digital rights since it's already up on iTunes (at high prices of course...$50 per season pass)
ReplyDeleteI swear I could hear the eye-rolls in every paragraph. That said, I definitely appreciate the look at why exactly we probly won't get our season set.
ReplyDeleteSo.... long story short...
ReplyDeleteBuy lots of single-disc releases.
Does anyone even know how many Bronies there are? And on top of that, what show or movie has had such a huge influence in our modern time (After Star Wars and Star Trek)? Non that I can think of.
ReplyDeleteI'm willing to throw a few bits out there for a good product. Even if it's only a few episodes, it's for a good show. And apparently, a good cause. So, band together and get the word out! Let's collect them as they come out. Whadaya say?
ReplyDeleteBUY ALL THE DVDS~!
ReplyDeleteJust so long as we're getting the full seasons at all, I'll gladly buy separate DVDs. But not blue ray.
ReplyDeleteI know lots of us fans who want to buy a complete season DVD set are very vocal about it, but there are tons of fans who probably wouldn't buy it and aren't quite so motivated to talk about their reluctance to spend $30 on something they can view online for free.
ReplyDeleteI completely understand where this guy is coming from, but in all the explaining Shout! has done they have never even addressed the most obvious compromise: Release every episode, but through single-disc volumes. That way it doesn't encroach on the other single-disc volumes and it's a lot cheaper, making it a lot easier to sell. What gets me is that he's worrying about being able to sell enough, when we have only added a large amount of people who will be buying them that they didn't even expect. They can be far more profitable than the originally intended if they just play it smart.
ReplyDelete@Jelfes
ReplyDeleteThe question is whether there's more than 30,000-50,000 North American consumers willing to pony up $30-$40 for a full-season DVD set. (If you're wanting them to go all the way with decent bonus features and maybe even some commentary tracks, focus on the higher numbers of those estimates.) Personally, I think there's a decent chance that there are, but I doubt it's at the point where it's worth the risk for Shout! Factory. Maybe, after another season of audience growth and some decent sell-through on single-disc collections, the numbers will make a season set more of a smart risk than a wild gamble. It looks like these guys like the show and know what they're doing, so I'm willing to have patience and hope for the best, while also showing my support any way I can.
He makes a good point. Not worth making something if you can't profit.
ReplyDeletetl;dr...I'll just keep my 1080p iTunes rips then and my money in my wallet.
ReplyDeleteI do know that Amazon does Manufacture-on-Demand services for third-parties (They've put several seasons of Survivor and Amazing Race for CBS) and I expect these to have low sell-through numbers.
ReplyDeleteMind you, the questions between who gets what split of the profit between Hasbro, Shout!, and Amazon for this comes into question.
If you can buy music on iTunes and burn it to a CD, you should be able to buy movies and burn them to DVD. If I could do that I'd be happy with the iTunes release. Heck, even if I could pirate the iTunes episodes that I buy WITH MONEY onto a DVD I'd be happy, and I may have to take that route.
ReplyDeleteAnd although it probably doesn't help, I would like to say that I do have $40-$60 burning a hole in my pocket just waiting for a DVD set. In fact I've been ready to walk into a store and buy one ever since I finished watching 1st season. Out of curiosity, who else can say the same?
Well......this is interesting
ReplyDeleteFacts and truth are depressing... But better than Shout factory lying our pointlessly keeping our hopes up
ReplyDeletePoor Brian. Not an enviable position to be in at all, between a rabid fan base and their desires. I give him credit and thanks for doing his best to explain it to us.
ReplyDeleteI just hope they manage to release all the episodes, one way or another, without any repeat episodes on different disks. As a fan base we're amazingly creative, so we'll figure out some way to make it work for us, I 'm certain.
It's important to buy the DVDs of Community - the commentary is worth more than the original episodes!
ReplyDeleteThen again, even Lauren Faust is no Dan Harmon.
Wow, Brian makes many valid points. It costs a lot of money to make the Dvds and how many people will buy the entire season in a store? Not many I imagine. Thanks for being cool Brian.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem whatsoever with this. By the time it arrives Spain, Season 3 will be over and moving onto Season 4 XD
ReplyDeleteI don't know why we as a community don't just make our own official unofficial box set with all the episodes and commentary from the people that made the show. I know the creators like to do interviews and show up on podcasts. Why not start collecting all that audio and video and just make a super torrent of all that content?
ReplyDeleteI don't at all mind single-disc releases. In fact, if that's better for the show and the distributor in the long run, I embrace them.
ReplyDeleteMy only problem is that I've been spoiled by HD streams and torrents, and actually watching the DVDs would be a bit of a step down from what I'm used to. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for any kind of HD release, segmented or otherwise.
This is actually a problem with all of the cartoons I watch. :(
@Aragrist
ReplyDeleteSilly little reasons like copyright laws, and denying profit to the official parties, which means they have less reason to make future seasons, and thus killing the show off entirely?
The fact he's even communicating with us is a positive sign. Plus, on a personal level, Brian is awesome.
ReplyDeleteStats are stats, if we want a box set, we need to buy the singles and/or convince the retailers to request it on their behalf.
They are a small dvd production company, they don't have the resources to take these risks. Let them know by pre-ordering the singles that we can do this.
I will be making a box set out of them, a custom one.
Expect me, EqD team.
FUCKING LIAAAAR, this show isn't for "very young audiences"
ReplyDeleteGive this rep a pay raise for good communication.
ReplyDeleteIn these comments: Entitled brats who are too stupid to understand what they just read, and that business 1. isn't the ideal, "I'm sure of it!" land they like to pretend it is, and 2. does not just run on "Well, I want it, and the power of one is the power of many so GIVE IT TO ME!".
ReplyDeleteSeriously, people. The guy knows what the fuck he's talking about. It's part of his JOB. The thing where he needs to make money at, and how do you make money on a project that could potentially lose money? The show's got a popular online presence, but so what? Having what appears to be a huge online fanbase doesn't mean much, just ask the music industry. Especially the Asian music industry!
Well, there are a ton of people hoarding ponies out there, so I dunno
ReplyDeleteI don't see a full season DVD release coming but It would be a nice surprise should it happen sometime.
ReplyDeleteI wish more bronies would GET this! Bronies are not the center of the universe. Just because you and all your friends are bronies doesn't mean that everybody in the world is!!!!
ReplyDeleteI mean come ON. The biggest brony "convention" on the planet so far has had what, 300 people? That's not even a drop in the bucket! Brony is tiny. It seems huge because we see it everywhere, but it is NOT huge. Someday maybe. But not yet. So come on! "Little girls" is a demographic that includes millions and millions and millions of people. "Brony" is a few thousand, especially if you restrict it to those serious enough to spend money on merch.
For those wondering about the single discs, B Ward has stated in the same thread that both Hasbro and Vivendi (Shout!'s parent company) that any of the releases will be themed sets. This is pretty typical for newer kid vid releases (and has been true since VHS days), so I'm disappointed, but not surprised.
ReplyDeleteI understand their reasoning a lot, but my DVD shelve is nearly full thanks to my interest in anime and a boxset takes up a lot less space then individual boxes.
ReplyDeleteAlthough, I was going to alleviate around that by getting rid of the boxes and getting those cases that allow you to store many disks anyway.
Eh, something will come out I guess...
I'm in AUS, and even if we got someone selling the single-discs over here, if I could, I would happily buy a complete season from North America even though it would cost...Quite likely substantially more if it means it will warrant the full DVD release of the second season.
ReplyDeleteEven if it meant that for every subsequent season I'd have to buy from North America to help keep the numbers up.
Look people, the point is the fandom's too young and too inexplicable to be invested in just yet, give it time. They're STILL working on the MST3K box sets after all, so I very much doubt a show that premiered a year ago would warrant a box set this early.
ReplyDelete@Aragrist Probably because it is illegal to do so. Having the episodes on youtube or even in torrent form is fine as long as you don't profit from it and give credit where it is due but actually selling a unofficial disk set would be like slapping Hasbronie in the face.
ReplyDeleteI completely understand. Like I've always said, I'm going to by the DVDs, no matter what form they're in.
ReplyDelete@MrTanokki
ReplyDelete(In regards to us going to a store and buying the complete DVD set)
That's what Amazon et. al is for.
"There are TONS of factors fans don't think about. They just walk into Best Buy or Target and get upset when they see single-disc sets. Or they don't see anything at all and that makes them even more upset. They don't understand the money that goes into producing the series and they don't understand the money we need to make back in order to KEEP producing the series."
ReplyDeleteinside baseball is inside. You got to say something first. :)
@Something To Quack About
ReplyDelete@bladespark
Uhhh, I don't see where you're getting this from, I see a whole lot of understanding, rational people who see where this guy is coming from.
I don't know if there are enough of us to support a full season DVD/Blu Ray or not, but I'm going to do everything I can to support the show anyway. I'll buy the single DVDs (I already bought that Target DVD), I'll buy it on iTunes, and I'll buy it again if they ever offer a box set.
ReplyDeleteI just don't want to see them cancel the show because they don't make money off of it. I've seen it happen far to many times already.
Yeah; that's how I've come to understand it thus far.
ReplyDeleteBusiness is business; companies do what is best for the companies. If someone can mount a survey wide spread enough to prove the numbers interested in buying that they need, we may have a shake at at least getting the creation of such a set into serious consideration (as he said; the people traversing these websites aren't all the bronies, so if we can get the necessary numbers of interested buyers from the onlie sites, it may hold some sway) but it's a far cry, and a risky venture for them even if they had the necessary numbers to warrant considering it.
For now, I suppose I'll be content with the single discs.. assuming the extra content is worth it, that is.
A bit of a shame, but I'm not too shaken up. I'm happy enough with the iTune videos that lack the TV logos; though having a DVD set would be cool, if not just for the kind of extras such a brony-demanded set would bring.
@wbwolf
ReplyDeleteWell... crap. Hadn't considered themed sets.
I'll still be buying them, but I just know having them in random order is going to drive me up a wall.
If the only way to legitimately buy the series is via iTunes, $50 isn't that much to pay for it.
ReplyDeleteDarn.....I'd shell out good money for some 1080p episodes and such, but there's no way for me to do so.
ReplyDeleteI'm up in Canada and the iTunes here doesn't have anything pony on it.....well, it has podcasts about ponies. I was very much hoping they'd have been making these DVD sets so I could give them my money.....dang.
Screw the dvd's. The only reason I really want them is to
ReplyDeleteA. have extras and the show
B. to have a pretty box that I can do without.
But I can get it on iTunes if I really needed to get them legally. I'm guessing they could also sell the extra's some how online too. embrace digital distribution people!
It really sucks that selling these episodes in any other format than single-episode DVDs means, well, they don't sell as many single-episode DVDs.
ReplyDeleteAre there any extras on the DVDs at all? I've never even looked at them.
In any case, I might go buy as many as I can find at Target this Tuesday in response. I've been wanting to own this show legitimately for a while now and I guess it's sorta helpful knowing just how little chance there is of getting them in my preferred format.
@Sun Ray
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Sun Ray. Do I think they would sell right away no. But if they where willing to put it up on amazon. I know they would sell. I mean how many of us actually buy things like DVDs in store anymore.
I'm sick of the condescending tone from shout factory. If Sonic Satam could get a box set many years after its release then I think we can support a box set.
Granted I think a lot of people would need to buy out of support of the show not just to have the set.
.
I can't help but feel like this is the avatar last air bender sound track issue all over again. IE there is a large audience willing to throw money at a product. But the exces are too stupid to make the product.
I'm really sick of being ignored when I would drop 50 plus bucks for a box set. Especially a blurry with special features.
I would've guessed that we needed to sell close to 3 Million single DVDs in order to warrant SHOUT making a full Blu-Ray of Season 1 or 2.
ReplyDeleteI think that if every Die-Hard Brony in NA
(a continent with approx. 400 Million people) could buy just 1 single disk DVD
(I assume only 1% of the population are Bronies)
We would be able to convince SHOUT to make a full season DVD, or even a Blu-Ray (if we can sell a total of about 5 Million in NA)
But let's also keep in mind the toys - Spongebob sold 75,000 dolls/week in 2004/2005
That's faster than the uber-popular Tickle Me Elmo...
Basically folks, let's open up our wallets whenever we can:
But one toy a week (I suggest Blind Bags),
and buy at least one disc.
i have them all off youtube w/o the hub mark in hd, so whatever
ReplyDeleteRelease every episode, but through single-disc volumes.
ReplyDeleteThis is what I'm hoping for as well. Honestly, I don't give a crap about "boxed sets" or "extras" that I'll watch once and then never touch again. All I really want is all the episodes on DVD.
There only 1 solution to this. Buy more pony toys and convert more people. Its the only way!
ReplyDeleteI would say that it's probably a good idea to wait until the following grows bigger.
ReplyDeleteBecause I for one know that it's not possible for me to buy a set when it comes out... well, at least not at this time.
Later, maybe. See, I know that promises can die... let's wait for the fandom to grow.
And there's also the fact that every one of the MLP episodes is out there in high-definition quality, available for downloading. While a lot of people would undoubtedly buy a DVD or Blu-Ray set for the extras and commentary, people who want to "own" a pristine high-definition copy of just the show itself only need exert their bandwidth.
ReplyDeleteThe community lavishes praise on Hasbro for not forcing these things to be taken down, but the flip side of that coin is that media companies tend to see perfect-quality digital downloads as diminishing the marketability of "legit" versions that cost money. (Whether they're right about that or not doesn't really come into it—all that matters is that they believe it.)
Fair enough...
ReplyDeleteI'd actually rather see a BluRay release. (Yes, I would buy it, even though I don't currently have anything to play it on.) I've got one of the DVDs, and the quality just isn't there. I guess I'm spoiled on the high quality YouTube videos.
ReplyDeleteSo the moral of the story appears to be, "You guys are awesome, but not as awesome as you think you are."
ReplyDelete...well, the man speaks the truth, I must admit. Then again, seeing as every episode is already available on Youtube in 1080p by the end of the initial air date (and we get a ton of behind-the-scenes stuff just on this site alone), I can handle not having physical copies of anything.
*brohoofs Brian and sits back*
I like this guy. He shoots straight and completely satisfied me with his responses.
ReplyDeleteAlso F the Clone Wars. Stupid obsessive starwars fanboys getting anything they want. *minor sarcasm*
@gillnavisingh
ReplyDelete1% of 400 million is 40 million. Most U.S. states don't have that many people in them.
I'd put our numbers at around half a million, tops, assuming a large number of bronies don't ever come to EqD.
Honestly, I feel a little offended about how he talks about the fans.
ReplyDeleteSomeone really should give Brian a medal for this. This is the most open, honest, and respectful communication that I've ever seen from a company like Shout Factory, and it's a big help in understanding the situation. Brian, if you're reading this, thanks - this means a lot to this brony, even if the news is bad from the perspective of what I might want.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like they've been burned one too many times by internet fandoms and they're just being cautious. We just need to be thankful that we even have this great show.
ReplyDeleteBesides it took PowerPuff Girls, the 90s X-men, Duck tales, and Rescue Rangers at least a decade before they got good DVD sets. It'll eventually come, just got to be patient.
@Aquaman52
ReplyDelete40 million would be 10%. 1% is "just" 4 million, so yeah.
This puts things in a whole new light
ReplyDeleteAs was said earlier, this is a young fandom... Shout Factory is a small company that's working very hard to do what they're doing right now, and just because you don't have a set now doesn't mean you won't have one eventually. After all, I have a very nice Farscape complete series set sitting on my shelf, and that's a set for a decidedly cult TV show that was released over six years after the show was cancelled.
ReplyDeleteIf the fandom is strong, there will be a set, eventually. Have faith!
I have to admit, that I can't see My Little Pony selling like mad at every retail outlet.
ReplyDeleteFor every 20-30 year old brony that walks into a major store like Best Buy or FYE, and sees a full season set of MLP and goes "Oh cool, I gotta get this!" there's at least 300 people to every one, that is going to unfortunately turn their nose up to it, or pass it buy because they aren't a fan.
We bronies are a cool fanbase, but also because we are a close-knit fanbase with an interest in common that most other people our age don't share. (Whether or not we think they're missing out, and I think they are, is immaterial).
They will give the special edition treatment to a show that they think EVERYONE is going to buy, not just something that 1 out of 100 people are probably going to buy.
I just burn the episodes that I bought on iTunes to DVD and make custom menus and artwork for my own personal set.
ReplyDeleteI like to put 6 episodes per disc and that will make 5 volumes. I just fill the last volume with extra videos that I've collected online, including some of my own PMV's.
Now I've gotta get me a Bluray burner and try that out. :D
It's too bad they can't put together a pre-order system. Get people to commit money towards a printing run based on the idea that they will end up with the minimum they can accept of 30,000 or whatever. Then have that money automatically refunded (possibly minus a very small processing cost if doing this completely for the sake of this experiment wasn't possible) if the volume they need isn't put together by a deadline.
ReplyDeleteIt'd be a only somewhat convoluted way to shut up a bunch of whiny fans, at the very least, if it failed. And if it succeeded... well, guaranteed profit.
Russia has already released DVD, there episode and comes complete with a figure.
ReplyDeleteBrian's [awesome] explanation might be circling the core principles of business (YMMV), along with strategically avoiding a big issue.
ReplyDeleteAssuming you have read Brian's statement, you have realized that most bronies probably wont buy the DVD boxset. Everything he says is true, but he is avoiding (and rightfully so) the fact that we have access to free downloads. I find it ironic how we are indirectly for something that we are usually against: Copyright Laws. Because these free-downloads exist, we are essentially asking Shout Factories to house a "Donate" button; we don't have to buy from them, we just want to support them.
Now, I think Brian might be circling a main factor here, not really hitting it head on (or maybe just in a way I am not recognizing). Going right to the core of this: Hasbro's financial division sees to it that MLP:FiM is making X profit. X is decided according to the sales over the past 3.5 generations, among other things. Obviously, Hasbro is making X, and I am sure they are making well above it thanks to the purchasing bronies. However, we are relatively new, only coming in in generation 4; we are a "bonus". Hasbro won't count on our income, because we haven't beaten the test of time and we are very 'unstable' (we are coming from the fragile success of the show - if broken, it wont be pretty on our side). I guarantee that us being a "bonus" wont change for quite some time (think in years).
Now, having gone over my impression on Hasbro's marketing, lets move to Shout Factories. They are meeting Hasbro's quota: they are selling for the definitive X profit. However, X only allows for themed releases. We, the brony community, are asking them for a complete DVD set. While it seems simple to us, we are still seen as the "bonus". What's the point of a bonus? You do not account for them. If Shout Factories were to release a complete DVD set, they would have to rely on the unstable brony community, who is already at the wrong end of the stick with the stuff Brian has pointed out. Now, Hasbro might be able to afford such a risk (looking at the whole company with every one of it's divisions), but Shout Factories probably cannot. Thus, they must budget for Profit X which does not see us.
Hopefully this clears some stuff up for those who are still confused or not seeing the point. These are surely not the only issues, and Brian iterates many more, but we cannot (or aren't willing) to change these factors, and thus a complete DVD set cannot be. On the bright side, being part of Hasbro's bonus, and them not counting on our profit, means they will likely continue to "overlook" the sites like PonyArchives.
Yeah, this is pretty much what I figured, nice of him to explain it all in detail though.
ReplyDeleteAnd there's STILL people in the comments who don't get it!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteYep, those are all very reasonable points.
ReplyDelete@Aquaman52
ReplyDeleteI think it's more like "You guys are awesome, but unfortunately economics doesn't pay attention to awesome." =p
The thing is, this honestly doesn't bother me either way, because I'm one of the sorts of fans he talks about that doesn't buy things.
I enjoy the show and the brony community, but I feel no draw to spend my money on toys or DVDs. This applies to other things I like as well (save for the LotR movies - I bought those DVDs.) I just don't get enough out of the peripherals to warrant spending my money on them.
(Especially when DVDs in general seem rather antiquated by now.)
The main reason I'd want to shell out for things is to use my money to communicate support for the show to Hasbro, since that's the sort of support they really need to see (see: Brian's whole paragraph). But even so, I'm still a broke college kid.
@6693908c-c89d-11e0-8ac4-000bcdcb8a73
ReplyDeleteExcept that Ducktales, Rescue Rangers, and even Animaniacs, STILL don't have complete released sets, and probably never will. If they can't make it in the DVD world, sadly I don't have much hope. There needs to be a better way.
Hmmm, I am pretty sure there are far more than 30,000 of us out here in North America alone. I mean come on, EqD alone averages around 160,000 hits per day.
ReplyDelete@Rulsis
ReplyDeleteUsing x264 I was able to fit 13 720p episodes per BD9 with acceptable quality. Don't forget to work on some of those artifacts in the iTunes sources. I used gradfun for that, with varying success. The eps also needed some color and gamma correction.
I'd recommend keeping it to yourself as much as possible. It would be a bad feeling seeing your fan work up on a torrent site competing with sales of an actual blu-ray release.
I still say they should at least give season 1 a full box set and see where it goes from there. The people who are going to buy them probably aren't all THAT concerned with price, those who really want it will pay to have it. So, release less than they normally would for a similar show and see how it works. As the author of this stated, there are other factors like copyright laws and such that must be factored in, but assuming it is possible to greenlight this and the only factor being "is it profitable enough", just give it a try.
ReplyDeleteMy sadness, it is infinite. ;-;
ReplyDeleteThis sort of thing is so darn disheartening, even if it all makes perfect sense from a business standpoint. I just wish it didn't have to be this way... the woes of being part of a relatively-niche market, I suppose.
I want the box set, but when you think about it, Drawfriend is our box art and Youtube is our Special Features. Bronies and the really cool Studio B people have generated more of that sort of thing than will ever be on a DVD.
ReplyDeleteI wanna give these guys credit for openly, honestly, and maturely telling us why this won't happen. It sucks, but now I am thinking about it from THEIR perspective. Now, I have met a LOT of bronies, but the funny thing is most of them I met online, and half of them are in other countries! (Mainly Canada, Germany, and a lot in the UK) so like he said, they don't even count if the wanted to spend the cash. Plus, i'm a huge anime fan, but I never buy box sets of the series. While MLP is an exception to my no buying ways, I get why they are hesitant the same way some anime companies may be hesitant because of people like me.
ReplyDeleteFor now, i'll stick with purchasing on itunes. It makes my ponies available, easy transfer to my ipod, and i'm supporting the show I love :)
The reason I buy DVD is for Behind the scenes stuff and commentaries, And Im sure Im not the only one who does the same thing.
ReplyDeleteI for one really appreciate that Shout Factory is so forward with fans. I think it shows that they are in fact listening, and they do care about what we have to say.
ReplyDeleteI do think that some bronies are underestimating the size of this fandom. Given enough time and a lot more fans, I think there will eventually be enough demand to support a Season 1 box set. (I mean, I know that G1 MLP has a box set--we can blame the oodles of MLP collectors for that, I think).
As long as the fandom keeps growing and proves that it is stable, there is still hope. It looks like this will be a game of patience.
The information is much appreciated ^^
ReplyDeleteIf there'd be a chance for me to buy the dvds physically, I totally would. And I believe there are way more than 30.000 bronies that would do the same.
But like Brian said, there's no way they can be sure of it.
Hey, have you realized that in Amazon has appeared a new DVD called Friendship express that is going to be released the same day that Ponyville Chronicles?
ReplyDeleteIf a full season DVD or BluRay were published, I would buy 2 copies as soon as it becomes available for pre-order. Of each. That is right, 2 copies of the DVD set, and 2 copies of the BluRay set. I would pay $50 for each set.
ReplyDeleteSadly, I just do not feel that buying the mini-sets is worth the time. How many of these episodes will be retailer-specific or run out and not be available? Not to mention that they are all out of order and it just seems like total hogwash.
I have been noticing a lot of pseudo-intellectuals in here and the last DVD thread.
ReplyDeleteWe get it. You took an economics class. Good for you.
Here is the reality of our situation. We are an untested market. Hasbro has not tested the waters with us because they have no idea how large or small we are. If you have the ability to call us a large or small part of the overall fan base then you're a damn wizard. A better use of your time would be turning rocks into gold instead of spending time on here.
Hasbro is not going to gamble on us until they get a good feel of our buying power, the over all economy turns around, or someone in authority over merchandise gets into the habit of placing bets with company money.
I know what your thinking "Hasbro isn't Shout Factory". That's a good point imaginary guy I just made up. The point is that Shout Factory more than likely doesn't have the money to take the loss of a failed bet like Hasbro does. Hasbro has to be the one to step up first before any small third party will.
Hasbro needs to reach out to us to find out what we want in merchandise and see if the target audience will also buy it. I don't know about you guys but I bought the kiosk figure set. Mostly because it was damn near the only way to get mostly show accurate figures. I know a lot of other Bronies that bought it for that reason too.
What does that mean to Hasbro? Not too damn much really because they have no idea the ratio of little girls parents buying them to Bronies. Same goes for anything we buy. Including single disk DVDs.
Lets say we each bought a "f**k-ton" of single disk DVDs. Then all they can honestly see is that single disk DVDs sell a "f**k-ton" and a large release is still going to be a gamble. Even if they did take a gamble and push Shout Factory to make a full season DVD set then they still don't know if it's us buying most of them or parents for their little girls.
We have to convince Hasbro that what we want is also going to sell well with little girls. How are we going to do that? Hell if I know. Maybe one of these wizards will be able to figure it out.
Until then my money will stay with me. I'm not going to buy toys I don't like or DVDs that are just random episodes. Also don't give me any of that "entitled brat" or "center of the universe" crap. Me buying stuff I don't like isn't going to convince them to make stuff that I do.
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ReplyDeleteJust re-tallied up how much I have spent on MLP:FiM merchandise:
ReplyDelete$865.20 USD
This does not take into account other side things to facilitate the enjoyment of Ponies.
Whoever stamps out DVD/BluRay will have some of my money too.
This sounds about right. Still, props to Brian for being so thorough about it.
ReplyDeleteSome people need to realize that for every fan willing to spend that kind of money, there are a good dozen or two who are tight and have to be stingy. Particularly for things like single DVDs, which is what they need to sell before they're able to consider a full season set.
The 3D printed ponies a few months ago illustrated this really well (admittedly, some of that may have been due to a lack of description of the finished product). Most of us said around $20-ish which was just above the cost of production.
U.S. only distribution, and only thouse who can afford it (and most likely to retail, which means fuzzy distribution questions (Where would the concentrated market of bronies be, and how much should be in stock? What about less dense areas?).
ReplyDeleteOf course, in a sort of brutal honesty sort of way, there's the bit about it not being "Clone Wars" or even "Transformers Prime." In other words, because it's ponies, it's gonna get shafted.
I commend Brian at Shout for putting up with all of the questions and assertions that are being thrown at him with a level head.
I'd say "at the risk of repeating myself..." oh, I did. Well, everyone else is doing it, why shouldn't I? :-)
ReplyDeleteWe are of course witnessing the slow death of physical media. The real barrier here is the high production and distribution costs of the ideal product we all have in our minds, when the size of the market (ie: how many would actually buy it) is such an unknown.
But with online, once you've actually made the content, production and delivery costs are negligible. So in fact Hasbro are already pretty much doing the right thing. The Shout guy didn't seem to know it - *they* didn't get digital distribution rights, but from what he was saying, it's almost as if they don't realise it's up on iTunes in HD within about a day of first airing. What he says about content-makers with the mindset that digital sales only cannibalise physical media sales (as if the money from the online sales doesn't count somehow) doesn't seem to apply here. Hasbro *are* doing digital sales.
And I would *love* to know how well they're doing. Frankly, if we're the fandom we think we are - at least the US contingent - MLP:FIM should be charting on iTunes. fx: checks... down, down, down the list... ah, there we are at number 164 for this saturday's episode. Is that good? It's not spectacular... I'm with the Shout guy: Clearly we're too much of an unknown to sink physical-product production and distribution costs into. As others have noticed, it sounds like they've been burned by empty fandom enthusiasm before.
It's frustrating for a lot of us that this is US-only, but that would be a digression (read: don't get me started. again.). At least if you're in that region there isn't really a good excuse for not buying the high quality product that is available, and is likely to be the highest quality product that's going to be available for MLP for the medium-term future at least; if not ever. You can (probably with reason) gripe about the quality of the encode compared to a hypothetical bluray version, but it *remains* hypothetical; and in the meantime, 720p 24fps from iTunes is going to be a *sod* of a lot better than 480i 30fps telecined (aka "NTSC" digital equivalent) that's the best you'll get on these DVDs. Even the transcoded colour-corrected rips would be far superior in quality to the DVDs.
In the meantime, let's face it, those DVDs aren't going to come with any extras we'll be interested in. It may not seem like it sometimes, but extras cost money too. A hypothetical DVD-extra interview with Jayson is going to involve a director/interviewer, cameraperson, lighting engineer, sound engineer *and* the time Jayson's being paid and not making more episodes. So those DVDs aren't going to have any interesting content the iTunes versions don't have. If the extra content existed we'd have heard about it by now.
And don't moan about the itunes copy protection. The DVDs will be copy-protected too; the intent is the same, the only difference is it's more trivial to circumvent (and yet they still do it - psychotically repeating the same behaviour that's never worked before - probably until a generational shift happens at the top of the industry, assuming it survives), and the bluray that doesn't exist and probably won't exist would be copy-protected too if it did. It's trickier to circumvent the iTunes protection, but ponyarchive provides if you want to format-shift. (I'm assuming here a general willingness to be legit; not wasting time talking to determined 'entitled' freeloaders.)
Certainly I don't see any reason to buy the DVDs. That's not how capitalism works -- cough-splutter-scuse me -- that's not how capitalism is *supposed* to work, by people buying stuff that's crap because they think it'll encourage the vendor to make something better.
we don't even make the top 200 season sales on iTunes. Loads of kids shows do; i mean, Dora's Explorer Girls? WTF *is* that? It's at #46, is what, and available in HD... (highest-charting HD kids show I could see - and it's a girls' show.)
ReplyDeleteWe don't even show up. That's just sad, as rainbow might say.
This is upsetting but fair, I just really wanted some commentary and stuff.
ReplyDeleteI understand their reasoning very well, and I accept their explanation. It's nice that they took the time to explain it as well, they were under no obligation to do so. Thank you Brian.
ReplyDeletePersonally, if a DVD is released containing any reasonable bonus features, I would buy it to show my support for the show and to get said features.
So even if they can't do large box sets, I'd hope they could do limited bonus features on the single DVD releases.
The prevailing assumption that underwrites Brian's whole argument is that the vast majority of parents will only buy single disc sets and nothing else. He's said that's been true in the past, so let's assume he knows what he's talking about. He also said 30 to 50 thousand units sold is the benchmark to make box sets a profitable enterprise. Now, if pessimistically, we can only muster the bare minimum of 30,000 Bronies to buy in store in North America that still leaves a mere 20,000 little girls to pick up the slack.
ReplyDeleteIf the fandom is so infinitely outnumbered by the intended demographic of millions upon millions, how is it rational to assume that not even a sliver of that portion will buy more of the merchandise supposedly directed at them?
Are there really less than 20,000 families with little girls on this continent who would spend money on another set of Pony DVD's?
I understand this is business, but that hardly seems like a gamble.
I appreciate him giving the lowdown on the process. But in a longwinded way all he said was "Bronies aren't a viable market." :-[
ReplyDeleteAs an economist, (or economist-in-training), everything this guy says makes sense. I didn't expect them to release a full season DVD because of the cost of getting enough people to purchase the DVD set that they would experience full economies of scale would be too great. Unless you are a really big firm, it is actually cheaper to produce more. And the other option (setting a quantity as Average Total Cost is still decreasing) wouldn't be cost effective enough to warrant production.
ReplyDeleteHe definitely made valid points. Another thing is that there already is an online release in iTunes, and I don't see why there would be a need for multiple.
ReplyDeleteSo THAT'S why the third set of Darkwing Duck DVDs never got released...
ReplyDeleteShout Factory is probably the best release factory in the US. This is the company that handles Mystery Science Theater 3000 releases - and they've just been so awesome.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, I think what he's saying is correct. There are so many shows I love that have still never gotten a full season set released, and probably never will, because the consumer want isn't high enough. Still, I'd love to see at least Blu-Rays or something. Or perhaps a special DVD of just behind-the-scenes stuff. I would LOVE to see something like a table read, if they do those for this show.
Brian, thanks for being so honest. We deeply, deeply appreciate it.
I understand.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the clarification.
I really took this as that Brian has little faith in the community to be honest.
ReplyDelete@StrangeNoise
ReplyDeleteWhere'd my comment go?
I concur with StrangeNoise. Buy the iTunes, download the rips, and be done with it. Whether it be not enough bronies or too many cheap bronies, a DVD box set isn't likely to happen. You go on Ponychan, all they do is complain about not having money to buy merch or merch not being worth buying for one petty reason or another. And our 4chan roots certainly show when people get into arguments over internet ideology on piracy.
In short, bronies are too cheap or poor to matter and still stuck to their nerdy ways to even spend a dime.
Wow it sound like Shout Factory just want to milk us for our money buy selling the groups of epsoides on DVD rather then sell the whole season on Heck I've spent 100$ to get the complete G1 series of Transformers and GI Joe on DVD and would gladly spent my money on MLP dvds it really depend on weather or not harsbro wants to give them the rights to the whole MLP serries or not
ReplyDeleteThis totally reminds of that sci-fi show years ago that did terrible until after it got cancelled; at which point, the fans carried it to the point that a decently successful (and awesome) movie was made of it. It's too bad that success wasn't brought on by it's incomplete DVD Box set. Oh wait, it was! Firefly!
ReplyDeleteThere are box sets of shows that don't nearly have this same popularity as MLP right now. If you cannot find a way to take advantage of a demand in order to make money from it, you're just making excuses. The excuses are fine, but don't tell us that there are no other ways around it. That's just lazy. There are worse products making companies far more profit, figure out how.
Finally: Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I'm no economist, but from the past 10 years I get the impression that a lot of graduated economists aren't either.
Yup... 99% the EXACT same thing I've been telling people. Don't even try explaining or bothering Brian. Because a lot of the Brony community is simply too dense to understand or simply doesn't care enough to listen. Trust me on this one.
ReplyDeleteI think this makes sense in a way.
ReplyDeleteThink about some of the toy releases. I mean, retailers wouldn't even carry Celestia if she wasn't a garish pink. There are going to be limitations on what is sold and how. Yes, ponies are getting shafted because of what they are. Though honestly, there are a lot more ways to get ponies besides DVD and not only that, but this community is a fountain of "extra content."
We should appreciate what we have in the first place.
Even though I'm the sort of person that buys boxsets of everything I love when possible, I can chill when it's not possible.
ReplyDeleteTo bad we can't do like some sort of paper or site or something. You know, like have everyone who would buy it sign "I, _______, would totally fork over money for a box-set of MLP:FIM." That way, they have an actual number to gauge, ya know?
ReplyDeleteImma keep my fingers crossed for a Kickstarter fund.
ReplyDeleteIf we as a fandom can fund the project to get Shout the necessary confidence booster, we might be able to get them to take the leap of faith and find out exactly how large the percentage of fans would be willing to shell out for the DVD.
Everything sold would be profit to them, and if we're wrong about their assessment of us, then they get to say "told you so" and walk away with our raised money as compensation for their time.
And of course, if we're right about our dedication levels, then they probably won't have the same hesitation problem ever again.
Just as a datapoint.
ReplyDeleteShout released the Max Headroom box set last year. With all the Max Headroom episodes aired in the US and some extras.
It went off the air in 1988.
The box set hit the market in 2010.
22 years from end of series to DVD.
That we're seeing MLP DVDs at all is amazing.
Buy the singles, tell Hasbro to shut up and take your money.
I dont know about you guys but I don't buy DVD/Bluray sets (or really any physical media) for the episodes, I buy them for the bonus content and the audio commentary. The full episodes with the sets are a nice bonus. I have iTunes for the HD episodes and I'm very happy with buying and supporting MLP trough that. I can see where Shout Factory is coming from and I wouldn't really want a box set with just episodes. I would probably still buy it just to support it.
ReplyDeleteMethinks We won't be seeing a home video full season set release until maybe a 5th or 10th anniversary or something.
ReplyDeleteIt may be a long time to wait, but honestly, It's far too early for hasbro/shout to make the risk and release full season sets yet, particularly since the brony craze is only a little over a year old, and there's still the potential that the fandom might actually die out soon. Not saying it certainly will, just saying it could be a thought hasbro/shout are having, and we can't really prove it wrong in any method other than time.
If we happen to stay a strong fanbase in the next few years, hasbro/shout might see the potential in marketing for us.
As I'm reading this, I'm watching the EQD hits counter edge it's way toward 75M, and wondering how the hell they can afford NOT to make a season 1 box set. That means if EQD's hits were converted to sales, .05% would be MORE than enough to cover them.
ReplyDeleteI was more understanding of not getting a box set when I thought the sales needed to be much higher, but we could easily reach these numbers (especially when added to the non-brony sales). They're seriously underestimating us, and that clone wars/transformers prime comment only supports this - those shows combined don't have the kind of numbers of crazy, rabid fans that FiM has.
@Jecht Erm... some people visit EqD 3 or more times a day.
ReplyDeleteThe actual amount of visitors wouldn't be anywhere near that high. So, again, the amount of guaranteed sales is an unknown.
@Mister Tulip: the online release on iTunes is not good enough because you can't wrap it, put a bow on it and give it to someone. We need DVDs to be able to give the gift of ponies!
ReplyDeleteThe solution is SO SIMPLE! Let us put our money where our mouth is. The Kickstarter idea is great; if they don't get 50K commitments, they don't produce or lose anything. If they do, we all win guaranteed.