This image is related because portals are actual science. At least, I hope so. I've invested quite a bit of time under the assumption that they are!
Way, way back during Nightly Roundup #4, Seth posted an article by a pony from Ponychan wherein the ages for the mane six were figured out. Skaijo wasn't satisfied with the explanation or the results, so himself and another pony friend of his set out to set the record straight with the help of the original author. The result was a comprehensive scientific report, with documented references, of the best estimate we can give for the ages of these marshmallow ponies.
Or, as he said in the email, the result was, "a very clear, condensed discovery backed by some of the brightness upcoming minds in MLP fandom since Bill Clinton."
That may sound like fluff to most of you, mostly because that was a joke, but upon opening the document I was actually fairly impressed by how official it looked. This could pass as a scientific paper, it's that good.
There was an attached PDF, but I don't have a place to host it, so I'll include the linked Google Docs format instead, which you can peruse here.
If for some reason you don't like Docs, you can also view it on Scribd, here.
127 comments:
Wow, it kinda made my head hurt, This is fancy work for a cartoon! Now only if our scientist put more effort in making portals real so we can visit Equestria!
ReplyDeleteDidn't really need much beyond the Lauren Faust quote.
ReplyDeleteAs she spake it, so mote it be.
That was very interesting, although all you needed to say was they are all around 4 years old.
ReplyDeleteThat's a lot of evidence simply to prove the existence of time itself in Equestria. Sheesh.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI haven't read the whole thing yet, but I love how thorough this is so far
ReplyDelete1. Define My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic
2. Define time and its units of passage
3. Prove time exists
In order to make muffins from scratch, one must first invent the universe
I don't remember what the original item being made was, but Derpy would approve of this version
The world builder in me loves this, not only for extensive and detailed work they did to make sure there were no holes in their theory, but by also providing information (most importantly the chart showing how relative ages of horses match with human equivalents) that can be used by others. Many, MANY thanks and kudos to those involved in the production of this paper!
ReplyDeleteUhh, can someone say their ages for those who don't want to look at the document?
ReplyDeleteI did think they were in the range of 20 to 25, and that either time on Equestria passes such that their age corresponds to the human equivalent, or that they age as humans do.
ReplyDelete>> a very clear, condensed discovery backed by some of the brightness upcoming minds in MLP fandom since Bill Clinton
ReplyDeleteOh LOL.
He yet never explained the contradiction with
Lauren's words. It's just another theory he trying to push hard, but why?
Okay... a part of me likes this. The part that enjoys looking deeply and analytically into everything I read, write, and watch enjoys the effort put into this.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, the fan in me despises the results, as the sudden knowledge that I am watching four year olds do all this awesome stuff is jarring, and actually a little repulsive.
I mean come on. It's magical talking ponies. Their ruler is an alicorn goddess that's over 1000 years old. Why are we applying real world horse logic to this? It just seems a little silly and absurd to me.
*opens document* "Hooo-hoo-hoooooly shit."
ReplyDelete@Rydel
ReplyDeleteThat would be an apple pie (which Applejack would totally approve of) and it's a quote by Carl Sagan, one of the greatest minds of the 20th century.
Yeah. This is really well researched, but I figure the ponies of Equestria are anthropomorphized in so many different ways already that it's reasonable to assume that they age at the same rate as humans.
ReplyDeleteBasically, I don't really like the idea of the whole Horse Years vs Human Years thing.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteBecause the younger they are, the more series we can hope to have made about them before they get too old to save Ponyville on a regular basis?
That was Serious business T^T
ReplyDelete4 years is a short amount of time, it almost contradicts with parts of the plot.....
ReplyDeleteBasically they're the ages we thought they'd be; 4-5 in horse years, 18-22 in human years. This would explain why they have things like jobs and live independently, but are still somewhat immature, as most of us were (or are) at that age.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to think that the lifespans of ponies in Equestria is more human-like, however, since otherwise their lives would be rather "rushed".. one of the reasons civilizations even exist is due to the longer lifespan of humans compared to most other creatures (and other extremely-long lived life, such as turtles and trees, are very slow or don't move at all, for comparison).
There's also the fact that an Equestrian day is 16 hours, not 24 (8 hours day, 8 hours night, as shown the several times we've seen clocks). So even though their measurements of seconds, minutes and hours are identical to our own world's, the day is not, which throws off every other subsequent measurement of time.
Wow, that was a crazy read. I kinda had to pinch myself midway through like I did with the RD sonic rainboom physics stuff just to make sure I wasn't dreaming that the fandom was now defining the confines of Equestria in real world terms.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous (the one talking about them getting to old to save ponyville, don't know how to link to specific comments still =n=)
ReplyDeleteYou forget though, this is a cartoon, and some cartoons, several in fact, have the characters forever remain the same age, no manner how many years pass. I mean, example, the simpsons(I know, not the best one), show been going on for over a decade and they are all about the same as when they started(last time I checked), even though they have had a few birthday episodes.
You know, this is actually a depressing way to look at it... thinking about it in horse years I mean. It means that their lives are already a seventh over and they're only FOUR.
ReplyDeleteThat's just... sad. :(
Actually, it's entirely possible to make portals with today's technology, it'll just be hard to make an actual portal GUN.
ReplyDelete@Rydel
ReplyDeleteIf you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.
A quote from a series just as epic as MLP.
Huh, I kinda prefer the interpretation of the ponies aging at least somewhat like humans do. I feel like an extended adolesence is necessary for a sapient species.
ReplyDeleteThat was pretty cool.
ReplyDeleteI think that it's a stretch to assume that they live normal pony life spans, since nopony actually knows how long ponies and others live in Equestria. For all we know, ponies could live as long as humans, or possibly longer due to magical effects.
ReplyDeleteTime... exists!?
ReplyDeleteIt was really well done
Wow have to say a lot of thought went in writing that up.
ReplyDeletethere is one significant thing that this paper overlooks in its analysis. while it seems to make sense that from a biological standpoint the ponies could only be 4 years old, their mental abilities are on par with that of humans. This causes issues becasue nature seems to suggest that mental growth generally has a limited speed. While they develop the same way physically, animals tend to develop mentally at the exact same speed as humans until they reach their maximum intelligence. for example, adult Gorillas are about as intelligent as a 2 year old human, and it takes them two years to reach that intelligence. considering this trend, it would be impossible for the elements of harmony to be around 4 years old and for them to be as mature as they seem. To account for the ways the ponies act, they would have to be assumed to be actually be around 18-22 years old. this is further supported by the fact that the episodes take place of a whole year, and in the span they don't seem to age noticeably, and definitely not 5 years. The aging would also be even for extreme for the CMC, which is not seen.
ReplyDelete"Even though Fluttershy said she was a year older than Pinkie Pie, we conclude that this was not literal"
ReplyDeleteProbably the most retarded thing I've read and made the shutin research completely invalid.
that is assuming some other factors unmentioned in the article. Horses are the dominant species in Equestria, perhaps medicine relating to them is much more advanced then veterinary medicine. that, and perhaps magic can have an effect on longevity and make for medicine eve=n more advanced than human medicine. even further still, perhaps since there is a lack of air and water pollution in Equestria, that might also give them a boost over humans in longevity.
ReplyDeleteAs far as we know, they might reach physical maturity quickly, but with other factors in place, live just as long as humans, with more of their life being adult life than humans.
'All Ages of the Mane 6'
ReplyDeleteBut this research failed to produce these ages specifically. So EPIC FAIL
Meh, I don't like the 'horse years' theory. If we're going there, how about biological reproduction? Word of Faust says that they reproduce like any other mammals, but what of their breeding cycles?
ReplyDeleteA more animal-like process would mean that the ponies have heat cycles. If they do have such short lifespans that would make sense as it would insure that almost every year they would mate and produce offspring. This is also evidenced by the fact that they seem unsexual most all the times that we've seen them, and the absence of white strings dangling from beneath the girls tails indicate that they have no menstrual cycle.
Yeah, I went there. See what happens when you overthink things?
plus, it could be argued that almost a whole year has passed in season one, as twilight went to ponyville on the summer solstice, and stayed past the vernal equinox.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to KISS?
ReplyDelete@Vermillion Twilight
ReplyDeleteI think at least the lack of things like genitalia and things can be hand waived as since all the ponies see each others parts all the time, it's so little deal that the parts might not even be there, and the viewer is just seeing an approximation of how they look to each other.
Y'know, I was honestly expecting some kind of final conclusions about which pony was the oldest and which was the youngest, and exactly how old each one was.
ReplyDeleteBut this is a whole dissertation written on someone we...kind of already knew. I mean, I could go on Wikipedia, check on the aging patterns of a normal horse, and say, "Hmm, so Lauren said they were young adults...hey, look, there's the equine equivalent of an 18-year-old human in terms of physical development. Mystery solved."
Apologies if I seem blunt, but...you didn't do anything. And the previous comments made an excellent point: considering how dramatic the change in seasons was, these ponies clearly do not age at the same rate as normal IRL horses. So this whole thing is, essentially, worthless. :/
I just assume that the ponies age at the same rate as humans because it makes the most sense in context and they're anthropomorphic enough (i.e. they go to school, live in towns, have jobs, etc.) to justify it.
@Adrian Brony
ReplyDeleteWell, and then there's this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NobodyPoops
It's clever, but the assumption that magic sapient ponies age at the exact same rate as real-world horses is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteLauren Faust suggested that the mane cast have teenage maturity levels with early-twenties responsibilities (and bodies), justifying the difference because real-life horses become physically independent rather quickly.
It would make more sense to say that the mane six are teenagers (have lived 12 to 18 years each) but that pony physical maturity comes earlier. Otherwise, you'd have to claim that ponies learn at three-to-four times the rate of a human...
Lol guys, 4 years old = 4 in pony years, as in they are 18-22 in human years
ReplyDeleteIt's the same thing for most animals.. dogs are the best examples of this :X
You know, there's no real way to go about determining this? Nor is there any evidence to suggest they age like earth horses.
ReplyDeleteOkay yeah. Lauren Faust said it was BASED on Horse agina. That could mean anything. Perhaps they age quickly at first and then their aging hits a brick wall once they've matured. If that's the case, then yeah, we can assume Applebloom is around 3, but that could suggest that a young adult in Equestria could be, hell, 75 or something, before they start aging again and end up like Granny Smith.
I'm just reminding you, you're trying to apply earthly restrictions to a world of magical, talking, anthropomorphic ponies. However TIME works there, biological aging could be entirely different. Biology is obviously different from the start (I mean, after all, they look NOTHING like regular horses) and there are four different species of pony to take into account. I'm sorry, but there is NO WAY to effectively take all variables into account and come up with an actual definative answer.
@Vermillion Twilight
ReplyDeletePonies do not bleed every month, even if they cycle. They don't cycle in winter. A cycle is around 21 days, and a pregnancy is 11 months!
My brain hurts now....
ReplyDeleteLol
Well, know I know how old they are in human AND pony years. I've actually been wondering about that for a while.
@Otherunicorn
ReplyDeleteOtherunicorn: "I copy and paste from wikipedia therefore i am smrta"
You know, I've always just like to think of them in human years.
ReplyDeletePinkie Pie-18 (19 at episode 25)
Applejack- 19
Twilight Sparkle- 19
Rainbow Dash- 20
Fluttershy-20
Rarity- 21
^ This anon has the right idea :) Let's just go with this. Way less confusing and screwy.
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one who prefers the idea that these ponies age like real world horses? I mean, you have to stop the anthropomorphizing somewhere.
ReplyDeleteApplying a human aging cycle to something that is CLEARLY NOT HUMAN seems pretty ridiculous to me. Does anyone have a problem with the fact that animals simply have different lifespans than us?
By size comparison to other ponies it obvious the mane cast are 'ripe'. Also according to the FiMwiki: In Rarity's flashback one of Rarity's classmates is a filly with the same mane style and colourings as Apple Blooms teacher. Considering Rarity's maturity level (also she seldom appears to act childish like Pinkie Pie and Rainbow Dash) this could be the case.
ReplyDeleteThey forgot one very big thing. The 'natural' lifespan of humans is only about 35-40. Technology and medicine make us live significantly longer. Since ponies in Equestria have magic and basic technology that real ponies don't have, their life expectancies would be significantly higher. Given that no one even bats an eye at Celestia being > 1000 years old, they may even live much longer than humans (though I'm sure Celestia is exceptionally above average).
ReplyDelete@Anonymous (11:14)
ReplyDeleteSo according to you: It 'needs to stop' where we see these fake, cartoon characters as growing up the same as humans. But its okay to see fake, cartoon characters as real horses...?
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteI always saw Dash as being one of the younger ones, actually. In any case, I personally see Twilight as being eighteen and then consider everypony else to be within a year or two of that in either direction, with Dash and Pinkie being the same age as each other and slightly younger than Twilight. Same deal with AJ and Rarity, except they're slightly older. And then Fluttershy is the oldest of all of them, but only by a little bit.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteTROLL.
I breed ponies in real life.
Haven't read the entire thing yet, but... The total time for all episodes is ~13 hours? Isn't one episode about 20 minutes(wich makes it a total of 8hrs 30min)?
ReplyDeleteSince there's no way to determine such a thing, as it's been stated many a time, I'm gonna do this and nopony will stop me.
ReplyDeleteShutterf- I mean Fluttershy: 17
Rarity: 17
Pinkie Pie: 16
Applejack: 16
Twilight: 15
Rainbow Dash: 14
I have my reasonings.
A 14 year old real pony, and her newborn:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGfljk6WQ8U
Sure, not exactly on topic, them not being MLP and all, but they are quite literally My little ponies.
@Anon 11:20
ReplyDeleteI was anon 11:02
I put Dash at the same age as Fluttershy (20) because they went to flight school together. I imagine to become friends in that setting they would have to be in the same class.
I imagine Pinkie as the youngest (18). If she is almost 19 through most of season 1, Fluttershy's "year older than you" quote makes sense.
I imagine Rarity being the oldest because she acts very mature (21), but she wouldn't be very far at all outside the mane6's age group.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteSeems too young. Faust herself said they are young adults which would put them at least 18+.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteI believe she said they had the physicality and responsibilities of early-twenties, but the maturity of 12-18 years old. It seems more natural that their bodies + social responsibilities grow faster than a human, than that their minds and knowledge grow faster.
Which would put them at 12-18 years old, but full physical and legal adults.
Although I'm not convinced they're at all immature for people in their early twenties.
22 minutes IIRC.
ReplyDeleteThe author is obviously assuming a full half hour per episode, but this would include commercial time as well.
As to the aging thing, yeah, we just can't assume that Ponies age at the same rate as real life horses. OTOH, we can't assume they age at the same rate as humans either.
But I will note one thing: while Season 1 may span a year, Apple Bloom and friends don't visibly age in all that time. Of course, the kids aren't in every episode and all the CMC episodes may take place over the first summer Twilight spends in Ponyville, but the latter doesn't FEEL right...
And of course, season 2 is likely going to show that none of the kids have visibly aged at all unless the episode involves growth spurts of some sort.
Haha, this show is a cartoon (which I like to watch even though I am a dude). A cartoon that is made with frames and more frames in the words of an animator is made by us, humans. As long as the cartoon has frames, it would have time (fps). All of us have the power to create amazing things, even a whole new universe inside our minds. However, all of us don't have the same mentality, and we all have different thoughts. Don't take this show too scientifically because one will end up racking one's brain XD, but morally. The show is intended to value morals, especially with friendship, to decrease the corruption in our society. (And yea, I read the whole article. It was very interesting to see other bronies ideas :D)
ReplyDeleteOH GOD THIS MEANS THEY DIE AT AROUND AGE 30, WHY DO GOOD PEOPLE HAVE TO DIE SO FAST?
ReplyDeleteBut seriously, holy shit that looks legit.
Anon 11:30, Fluttershy was a slow learner when it came to flying, so she might have been held back a year in flight school. So Pinkie and Dash are around the same age with Fluttershy being a year older then them.
ReplyDeleteMy thought on ages.
All ponies are between 18 and 22.
Pinkie Pie and Dash are the youngest.
Twilight and Fluttershy are around the same age.
AJ and Rarity are the oldest.
You would have me believe that a pony can learn a career skill like fashion design and become a recognized professional all within a year of real time (from the puberty to young adult year). Yeah, I don't think so.
ReplyDeleteDon't apply real world logic to magical ponies with a human like civilization.
Wow, they put a lot of time and thought into this to make this appear quite professional.
ReplyDelete... But Lauren already said that the girls are between 12 and 18 in terms of human aging/maturity.
This is just over analyzing it.
...You guys do realize that 4 years human-time =/= 4 years pony-time, right?
ReplyDelete@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteDon't apply real world logic? But you just did -- and it worked quite well! Of course a year or two is insufficient to master a complex trade, unless you assume ponies learn at an absurd pace.
The trouble is, "horses and Equestrians are similar -- aside from the magic and wings and sapience -- so they must age exactly the same" is not real world logic. It's silly. And although following that silly premise to its conclusion is a fun mental game, it provides no insight into our Equestrian friends.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteYeah, I would agree with you. But then someone made a post underneath me.
Given how the show proves Pegusi are quite light in weight, and how Rainbow is shown to be scrawny even in this regard; also taking a look back to CM Chronicles, it can kind of be assumed Dash (discounting her immaturity & emotional instability) is the youngest and Fluttershy can be put at the top.
Adding Pinkie's a year younger than Fluttershy and Rarity had Classes with Cherilee, I came up with those three ponies being the same age.
Applejack seems to hint that she's known Pinkie for a long time, long enough anyway to let Twilight know the entirety of Ponyville pays heed to her twitching. If I remember right, Applejack freaked out as well around that same scene. Suggesting she learned of Pinkie's talent some time ago, and probably not in the nicest of ways. Big Mac's worryin' in the beginning of Applebuck season suggests his sister knows how to handle herself, but is still emotionally young enough to let her head get the best of her.
Pinkie being a year younger than Fluttershy, and from the way Applejack acts & is acted towards by her family, leads me to think she's the same age as Pinkie.
With Dash being the youngest, and the rest of the ponies ages at least put on scale, where's that leave Twi?
She's obviously younger than AJ, but is more mature than Dash. Mentally I just kind of put her in the middle.
To accommodate for the Word of Faust:
Fluttershy: 19
Rarity: 19
Pinkie: 18
AJ: 18
Twi: 17
Dash: 16
They can't be that mature by merit of the show itself, yet Lauren says they are young adults. By everything I've read, this looks alright... recanting my first list of course.
Upon the post below my first and your reply, this is how my brain further rationalized their ages.
I can't say I've liked any of the "research" & science done so far.
Might tune it a bit more, but I like this list.
/tl;dr
I love how in-depth this goes, though for my money Faust's comments aren't specific enough to pin them down to being in synch with how real ponies age. She said they "grow up fast" but she did not say they age at the same rate as ponies.
ReplyDeleteConsider also, that Cheerilee is implied to have been a foal during the 80's (or the pony equivalent) which would mean she is in her mid to late 20's, if not early 30's.
Finally, I think there's simply no way a group of 4 year olds could be capable of being productive members of Equestrian society, which is complex enough to be comparable to that of the real world(and also features unique challenges not found in reality, such as the ponies being responsible for the workings of nature.) 4 years just isn't long enough to learn all the things you need to be an adult. The Cakes would have needed more time to become master confectioners, the current Apples couldn't have become such outstanding farmers after only a few harvests, and so forth. Even if their brains mature faster, there's no substitute for experience.
Anyway, it's total fanon silliness, but I love overthinking things like this. For my money, though, the ponies all live about as long as humans.
@Otherunicorn
ReplyDeleteWatching that I dawwwed a little inside :)
I think my original point was that if you get into over analyzing things, it can get gross where you might end up.
For example, Luna: given a physical comparison to her sister Celestia, she should be at a maturity level comparable to Applebloom, Scootaloo and Sweetie Belle as compared to regular 'adult' ponies, but she has an appearance of a slightly larger regular adult pony. This has led to some fanfic writers to sexualize her as if she were an adult pony. That's kind of creepy.
You could argue that she's at least a thousand years old based on the time frame of events that led to her banishment in the moon, and thus beyond normal pony adulthood, but that doesn't account for her almost childlike demeanor before and after the events of her banishment.
I would put her development at just at the onset of puberty, which may explain why she was so rebellious pre-Nightmare Moon. I suspect that when we see her again in season 2, it will involve her relating more to the CMC as peers than anyone else.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteSame Anon. Just a thought to add.
Disregarding whatever it would take to figure out their precise ages, I feel as though that's the best age group I can fathom without anypony else's help.
Four years between youngest & oldest.
With that, actually... Rarity works as being 19-21 relative. I kinda just worked the pattern out of it. 1,1,2,2,3,4 & thought of particular lines from the show to possibly support it.
Whatever nonsense I'm speaking, an age range of 4 years between the mane 6 seems to make my brain stop hurting. So I'm going with that.
I'd rather they stop reading into that Lauren's comment what simply isn't there. But I guess it's just ponychan being ponychan.
ReplyDeleteThe ponies are definitely anthropomorphized to the point where they would have to age at the same rate as humans for anything to make sense.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous
I hate to nitpick, but that can't be right, as we can reasonably infer from ep 23 that Fluttershy is the oldest. Other than that, I'd just be guessing. Who's to say Pinkie Pie is the youngest?
Ha, I just realized that I posted way after the post I responded to.
ReplyDeleteFriendship Lesson learned: even though a paper may have a lot of references, it still can be complete bullshit.
ReplyDeleteWell-researched, my ass!
There still isn't enough proper evidence for me to accept an aging cycle equivalent to real life equines for the pony races in this show. This document looks to a lazy and otherwise very vague quote from Faust in order to back everything up and I'm sorry but that quote just cannot be given the level of authority they apply to it for this given how its written. The question mark Faust throws in at the end of it should automatically mean it be discounted as an authoritative reference IMO.
ReplyDeleteThe overall analyses of time passage in this seems about right however. One of the things I find interesting that they seem to have neglected mentioning is that all the clocks in Equestria seen so far a 9 hour time listing instead of the normal 12 like we have. My assumption for this would be that since Celestia and Luna raise and lower the moon and sun within less than a minute for each event, the normal 3 hours or so of time combined that those events take in our world are not included on their clocks, but otherwise time itself can be said to flow at an equivalent rate to our world.
@Icehawk
ReplyDelete*epic facepalm sigh* Or maybe the clocks were a frggin animator oversight. FFS a lot of you seem to forget this is a kids show, how pathetic.
In anycase, I think its hilarious how whoever made this retarded dissertation obviously spent a lot of time on it thinking they would be cool and now they're being mocked for all the seriously stupid stuff written in it. What a failtard.
@Anonymous (12:08)
ReplyDeleteWhat in the absolute sonic rainboom flying f*ck are you on about? So according to you, oir maturities are defined by how old we are? The fact that there is obviously someone younger than you NOT watching this childrens show doesnt make them more mature than you then! Your entire post was flawed to the point of wanting to make me vomit.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteNormally I would agree, but if it were just an oversight it probably wouldn't happen every single time a clock is shown on screen...
I suppose another explanation would be animators are just going for simplicity in the same way most human cartoon characters have 4 fingers instead of 5 though. I still like to think its because of the sun and moon rising and setting taking mere seconds that they shaved their clocks down a few hours to accommodate that.
Blah, message was lost...
ReplyDeletebasic, we are looking too much into this,
if they did age, the show would have to end alot sooner,i personally do not want that.
let the creators decide the age and let them know we want to know
From an evolutionary standpoint, it is important to note that animals with a higher intelligence have usually a higher life expectancy than other animals. They generally profit more from being alive longer and if more children survive their early years, it will be less important to grow up fast.
ReplyDeleteThis means, that ponies in MLP will almost definitely live longer than ponies on earth. Personally I think they can get up to about 50 years, but I doubt we will ever know for certain. If a fanfiction author has a reason to include the age of certain ponies, I would advise to keep it vague, since no matter what age one would use, it would be "wrong" for about half the community.
@Vermillion Twilight
ReplyDeleteIndeed, we are trying to analyze something into which it is likely very little thought was put.
A couple of things to foul up the equine years theory - Hasbro sell MLP babies in nappies - and Twi is seen disguised as a mother with a pram at one point - something which is totally everyday to the ponies that pass her. In real life, a baby pony goes straight to toddler.
The reality is that these are not ponies - they are humans expressed as brightly colored pony caricatures.
I call shenanigans!
ReplyDeleteA society like Equestrian society is based on a unique pony species that has human like intelligence. Science has proven that this simply doesn't accelerate in biological terms.
I say that pony lifespans are close enough to be relatively comparable to human lifespans.
Also, do you want your beloved imaginary ponies to all be dead by... well the age of many a brony?
That's just cruel. The idea of giving an intellect to a short lived being. Heck, even animals with rudimentary learning capacity (parrots) are relatively long lived. They often out live us humans even!
I do think it's absurd to imagine all the culture depicted in the show even being possible in animalistic equine lifespans.
I could just imagine the faces of the target demographic when they get told Twilight Sparkle will be either a shriveled up old granny, or be dead by the time the poor bawing girl grows up!
Seriously people, You're talking about anthropomorphized ponies, yet you can't anthropomorphize their ages?
Also, said already, but for all the analysis of this article, I love how they just brush aside Fluttershy's "I'm a year older than you" comment. That discredits the WHOLE PAPER to me. They had a goal of FORCING the data to fit animalistic equine aging. Scientific paper is not scientific at all. It is purely a manipulation of data to reach a set of beliefs of an odd bunch who like to make their imaginary ponies die awfully young.
That's just weak!
Overwrought and pretentious. Almost outstanding how many words it uses while saying next to nothing we didn't know already.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous
>To accommodate for the Word of Faust:
>Fluttershy: 19
>Rarity: 19
>Pinkie: 18
>AJ: 18
>Twi: 17
>Dash: 16
Source on Faust providing definite ages? Why do we assume that Dash is the youngest, or that Fluttershy is necessarily the oldest? All we know is that Pinkie is younger than Fluttershy. Nothing more.
@Tripfag McGee
ReplyDeleteActually, we know Applejack was younger than the cutie Mark Crusaders when she left for Manehattan,
Dragons like Spike live for thousands of years, Spike is younger than Twilight and still a "baby" and that Rainbow Dash was first in her class to earn her cutie mark, and AppleJack the last. Some also assume that Pinkie Pie is the youngest, due to her mannerisms, attention seeking and whatnot, and Fluttershy is the oldest due to her different size in The Cutie Mark Chronicles.
That's really helpful and interesting.
ReplyDeleteGood Job !
Jeeze, so much hate...
ReplyDeleteAbout everyone complaining about how the paper points out a lot of obvious conclusions, that's just the nature of a scientific paper (which is the style this analysis is emulating). In the name of rigor, a lot of very obvious stuff HAS to be stated explicitly and proven because these kind of things have to be built from the ground up and made airtight.
Notice how any criticism against their analysis is solely confined to either challenging the assumption of human/equine age equivalency or just blowing it off as overthinking? Any actual facts that can be derived from data has already been extracted and presented, and all that's left is interpretation. It's the hallmark of good science.
Personally, yes, I do believe that the fantastic and arbitrary nature of time in Equestria leads one to question the human/equine age equivalency assumption, but I can't really offer a reasonable substitute or alternative interpretation. The old ponychan thread had some more interesting analysis to chew over, but the math was a lot more rough and the assumptions based entirely on averages and guesswork. All-in-all, though, the paper puts down a good foundation for any future work, if any more is to be attempted, despite the rather tenuous assumptions.
And finally, gotta give a brohoof to the authors, as I'm another GaTech brony.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteWoot! Gatech Bronies unite! I'm reading this from the 3rd floor of the MS&E building right now.
Thanks for the work, I don't think many people are familiar with what scientific articles look like in the first place. Your interpretation of a scholarly article is spot on and I appreciate the clarification.
Really, if anyone wants to produce their own interpretation of the Mane Six ages, this article provides a great foundation to work from and critque or support. That's the jist of all scientific articles really.
Oh dear, why on earth would you be there on such a fine weekend?
ReplyDeleteAm rather curious about the Brony community at Tech, actually. I just know of myself and a friend whom I've converted. When I'm shuffling between classes I tend to whistle a lot, with the occasional pony tune to see if I catch the ear of any Bronies.
Seth, I think you're using the word "scientific" a bit too much. I know it makes everything sound 20% more serious though.
ReplyDeleteGonna have to totally disagree with this paper, based on Rarity. She has a successful business, and that doesn't happen in less than a year. Making clothing takes time, and if she were 4 years old she just wouldn't have had the time to make all those dresses and grow a business.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteI'm performing an NMR experiment in Gelbaum's lab. xD
There are actually two people that I know of that have at least seen the show. I see them at least once a month when I study for lit exams. One's an indian girl and the other is a white dude and also a good bud of mine--but he's skeptical of show even now. It's only a matter of time.
I'm pretty confident anyone who thinks they can disprove this paper with a smug dismissal in the comments section has never even seen an actual scholarly article before.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't like the scientific method, formulate your own opinion, then fact check your findings, run them by peers, write your own report, support the report with references, and then submit the work to Equestria Daily yourselves.
Lot of hate in this thread. And there are still people IRL who think the Earth is flat, green house effect is a myth, and that global warming isn't influenced by mankind.
ReplyDeleteI guess raising the ire of the masses is actually proof that OP was right in the first place. So good on you, Skaijo et al.
It's much more interesting, in general, to use the Human Aging than the Equine Aging.
ReplyDeleteCharacters living JUST 20 or so Years are just not very interesting to use... Most if not ALL authors so far give the Ponies the Human Aging system, instead of the Equine one.
That was disappointing. The paper critically misinterpreted the Lauren Faust quote in footnote 15: It wasn't about physical age, but maturity levels. The mane cast are anywhere between 12 and 18 - pre-adult - stage of maturity, which allows the creators to occasionally have them act childish, but are physically young adults. Given that these ponies have the equivalent of _human brains_, I think the reasonable assumption to make is that they would take _as much_ time to mentally mature and learn as humans do. As in, they are actually between 12 and 18 years old, but still young adults. To further pinpoint their ages according to evidence within the show, that would be some impressive scholarly work, and I was anticipating reading the paper with that in mind.
ReplyDeleteBut... from misinterpreting this Faust quotation, the paper goes on to completely neglect analyzing the pony world on whether their assumption that the main cast is four years old is true, or consider any other theories and possibilities. When I read the title "Acknowledgements", I was quite dismayed. "What, that's it?" The only reason the paper can claim an exact determination of the mane cast's age is because it took the easy way out right from the start. It looks very scholarly though.
Woah, quite the shitstorm above? I feel kind of glad I wasn't the only one to see the discrepancy in the interpretation regarding footnote 15.
ReplyDeleteI'm mostly sad about what I didn't get to read - I'd have loved for the paper to go on for 20 extra pages dissecting the various evidence provided by the show. And kind of worries that the endorsement this paper gets from an Equestria Daily feature will help perpetuate the "They are all four years old" theory, which just hasn't a lot going for it.
Then I remember that it's friggin' ponies and I should stop worrying and love the bomb the new season is going to be. Twilight is best pony.
To Anon @ 8:16 AM
ReplyDeleteThe scientific method is great, but using it isn't enough if the data is flawed or, in this case, doesn't account for certain variables. This could lead to a false conclusion. I'm not saying that the authors are wrong, I'm merely pointing out there is room for disagreement.
This article relies on the comments of Faust, the growth rates of actual horses, and a few comments from the characters themselves. What it doesn't take into account is how Rarity and Twilight Sparkle have developed a mastery of certain skills that take years and years of practice in human time (because, as the article pointed out, they also use UT), the picture of Cherilee that suggests that the ponies also lived through the 80s or something similar, Spike's level of maturity compared to those of his friends, and the similarities between the human knowledge base and the one the ponies have developed.
Also, there's no rule that states you have to write a dissertation to state criticisms you have of a research paper unless you want it to be taken seriously by fellow researchers.
Anon 8:16 - I actually authored a few scholarly papers myself. You know what they have in common that the OP paper doesn't? They were accepted by scientific community and published in a scientific journal.
ReplyDeleteThe OP paper hasn't underwent that procedure, and therefore it's pointless to discuss it as if it was legitimate attempt at science. It's just an argument in a PDF form. The flaws are self-evident and explained at length in the comments here. That's all it deserves.
The angrier and "greater than thou" this thread gets, the more I'm inclined to appreciate OP's calm and rational argument.
ReplyDeleteThe real lesson of the day is that when this was posted on on EQ.com before, a couple of bronies disagreed with the findings and instead of being smug and dismissive, they contacted the original brony and worked together to formulate a more sound theory. OP isn't a mystery, he posted his email in the paper for a reason. If you hate his idea, you can cite this paper, gather your thoughts, and post a rebuttal.
Or post in the comments of a decent piece of work and pretend like you made a difference.
There are your options, friends. Anon out.
Looks at reasonable article.
ReplyDeleteLooks at vehement thread.
Saves article in MLP folder for future references.
Tries to understand why comments are so ugh.
My theory:
1. Bronies hate it when you try to define their lovable ponies
2. Bronies are spurned in real life into a ball of introverted love for only ponies. Screw science!
3. Forgot that ponies aren't in fact real and was just really bored today.
3. Overcompensating much, Brony Community?
You Saved Science
ReplyDeletewait, but wasn't one of the older ponies alive during the 80's? the 80's wasn't 3 years ago.
ReplyDelete@Dr. Robotnik
ReplyDeleteThe equine equivalent could have been.
The only "character" whose age is known is Gummy, whose first birthday was in "Party of One". But that doesn't really give us much on his owner's age unless we presume that he was her birthday present from the previous year and she wouldn't keep a pet that ages at half the rate she does.
This is totally invalid becuse it assumes that Lauren said that ponies age the same as normal horses, which isn't what she said. She just said that they physically mature faster than humans. If they really did grow up in 4 years, we should have seen significant maturation on the part of the CMCs between the Summer Sun celebration and "Fall Weather Friends".
ReplyDeleteI think it's more likely to be around 10 years to physical maturity, with mental development more akin to human norms.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteThere have been plenty of perfectly reasonable criticisms pointing out the flaws of this document in throughout the comments here, that you aren't acknowledging them just shows your own ignorance.
Just because this document appears all nice and dressed up in a professional manner doesn't mean you should be accepting it so quickly without probing it yourself and you should try reading the other comments which are not simply knee-jerk emotional reactions.
That writeup does a good job of demonstrating ET ~ UT. (Of course, "10 seconds flat" is not a precise measure -- and RD did not have a timepiece to confirm -- so ET seconds could be modestly shorter or longer than UT seconds.)
ReplyDeleteHowever, the supposition that Equestria's magical ponies age at the same rate as the horses found in Ensminger is completely unfounded, and is difficult to square with the broad space of similarity between humans and My Little Ponies.
@Dr. Robotnik (and the Pony 80s),
Cheerilee appeared to be a young adult when pony fashion trends paralleled the 1980s. However, there's no indication that it was 20-30 years ago in Equestria, just because the real 1980s were 20-30 years ago in the real world. (The scene DOES imply that her students weren't old enough to remember the fashion trends at the time.)
@Disagreement-Is-An-Attack-On-Science,
This comment thread is part of the scientific process. It's the closest thing to peer review we have for My Little Pony articles.
Alright then, how's this for an email?
ReplyDeleteDear authors of "Scientific Determination of All Ages of the Mane Six",
below the header "Manner of Aging in Equestria" in your paper the first sentence states that the physical development of Equestrian ponies is based on the manner of aging for real life horses. It then proceeds to draw the conclusion that their actual ages must correspond to real life horse ages, and from then that four years must be the age of a young adult pony as the mane cast is.
Carefully examining the quote by Lauren Faust given as source [15], I think it was vitally misinterpreted. The article is correct stating that the Equestrian ponies are based on real life horses as regards physical development - but the important limiter is "based on". Lauren Faust pointed out a discrepancy within her own imagining that the ponies are clearly young adult, but she imagines them with a maturity level of between 12 and 18; namely, _compared to humans_, they develop faster physically than mentally. What she does not, however, state neither explicitly nor implicitly is that they develop _just as fast_ (in UT or ET) as real life horses, only that aspects of their development - the tendency to grow up fast, mature slower - are based on them. That is, however, unfortunately the conclusion erroneously drawn in the paper.
In addition, she points out in the _same_ quote that the ponies have "human brains". This is apparent in the show, where ponies are not depicted with mental capacities clearly superior or faster-paced than humans, and have even built societies that seem analogous to modern day human society. Ponies such as Twilight Sparkle or Rarity could not have achieved their exceptional knowledge and craftsmanship within four years if they had been saddled (I apologize) with a mere human brain.
If I have overlooked a crucial point that defeats my interpretation of the Faust quote and supports your theory, I would appreciate it pointed out to me; but as of now, I cannot accept the conclusion presented in the paper as sound. My own theory based on their depiction as human-like and possessing "human brains", is that they are roughly as old as their maturity levels show for a human, as in between 12 and 18 years old, and the only difference to humans in this department is that they have been adults since 12 instead of 18-22. In Equestria, adults are more childlike than in the real world.
Take from this email what you will; I do think that a more precise analysis of Equestria's social and economic system could provide the way to a rough estimate of the mane cast's age and I would love to read such a thing, though at this point I don't think it's possible to pinpoint their physical ages to a certain value.
Respectfully,
Silfir
Rainbow Dash clearly makes the claim that she can perform a stunt “...in ten seconds flat” and then proceeds
ReplyDeleteto perform the stunt in 10.0 s UT, before concluding and verifying that she performed the stunt in 10 seconds of Equestria
Time (ET).
This is the greatest quote ever.
Really, this is the FIRST time that I see a scientific doc. about a show (even a girl's show). I'm really impressed with this fandom.
ReplyDelete. . . with no science behind my reasoning, besides personal beliefs, This is what I always imagined they would be.
ReplyDeleteFluttershy- 18(already had birthday)
Rarity- 17(already had birthday)
PinkiePie- 16(17 by po1/most recent b-day)
RainbowDash- 16(yet to have birthday)
Twilight- 17(yet to have birthday)
AppleJack- 17(yet to have birthday)
From my perspective, Fluttershy would be the oldest with her 18th birthday in early spring(March-ish), then Rarity would have had her 17th birthday in April-May, Pinkie's 17th b-day in early to mid-June, Rainbow's 17th would be in late-June or early July, Twilight's 18th would be in September-ish, then finally Applejack's 18th b-day in October. Just my perspective though
Umm... yeah, good work with the research. But two problems I want to point out.
ReplyDelete-The paper assumes that Equestrian equines are biologically identical to real-world equines, which is clearly wrong since Equestrian equines include Unicorns and Pegasi. This is also supported by the different skeleton that Equestrians have - they have forelegs that can bend like human arms and like animal forelimbs at any given moment.
-The paper fails to acknowledge that Equestrian time is different from real-world time. In Equestria, the clocks have eight hour markers, meaning each full cycle of day and night takes sixteen Equestrian hours. Each Equestrian 'hour' could be an extended real-world hour, totaling twenty-four real-world hours. OR Equestria has real-world hours, but their days are sixteen hours long.
There is also the fact that the paper is applying real-world science to a world that disobeys our science. Physics do not work the same way in Equestria like it does in the real world. And that simply cannot be the only difference - in fact even biology is skewed with the existence of Poison Joke and Parasprites.
TL;DR Paper assumes too much, and forgets that Equestria has a 16-hour day/night cycle rather than 24. Fail.
If Pinkie Pie is 4 years old = 18-22 human age
ReplyDeleteFluttershy is 5 years old = 24.5~ human age
i think you cant count pony years AT ALL in the equestrian ponies for one simple fact, the series 1 took place easily over a year and AppleBloom did not turn into a teen. end of story. your argument is invalid.
ReplyDelete@smithchips01
ReplyDelete"i think you cant count pony years AT ALL in the equestrian ponies for one simple fact, the series 1 took place easily over a year and AppleBloom did not turn into a teen. end of story. your argument is invalid."
*** !!!YOU FINE SIR WIN AN INTERNET!!! ***
Your argument truly trumps all statements regarding the absurdity of animal equine aging being relatable to Equestrian aging. We KNOW a year passed based on the fact that the series started in summer, that fall winter and spring all came and passed. We also very clearly see that Applebloom, Scootaloo, and Sweetie Belle have all retained their youthful filly appearances. They have simply not grown up! In horse aging terms, they should have, and since they have not, well... That means they don't age like real horses.
SUCH A SIMPLE observation!!! Thank you for catching it!
smithships01, you saved science!
You saved science... and I butchered your name! Oops!
ReplyDelete"My pony theory is more important than your pony theory."
ReplyDeleteGet a life people.
The biggest faux pas in this whole thing is deciding that ponies age like horses rather than humans and then taking that presupposition in place of any actual evidence.
ReplyDeleteIf Fluttershy says she's a year older than Pinkie, we have to accept that she is in fact around a year older. (In normal speech, "a year older" can be anything from 10 months to 14 months older.
Since FS and PP don't have any significantly different physical development level, we have to assume that ponies do not in fact age like horses (where a full year is the difference between 10 years and 16 years human age, or about the difference between Apple Bloom and Applejack).
Since the show is written by humans who probably didn't think that deeply about things, we can probably just assume that ponies age about as fast as humans do, with the exception that their infancy is probably more like a horse's, physically speaking. (That is, no 'baby in a cradle' period, but walking very soon after birth.) They probably develop mentally at a rate similar to humans; a two year old foal is just starting to talk and understand the world around them in more than animal ways.
# of Google Docs + Scribbed Document Views: 2,530.
ReplyDelete# of Angry Bronies (not counting clones) that disapprove of the paper/can't follow outlined logic in this thread: ~80.
80/2,530.
That's 3%. Marvelous.
:D
@Skaijo
ReplyDeleteWell arn't you full of it?
Anyways, I'd like to point out something in regards to many people assuming Rainbow Dash is one of, if not the youngest of the Mane6. ALL speculation aside of who is the oldest/youngest: Rainbow Dash CAN'T be the youngest, and this is proven in the flashback episode. In this episode, in Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy's flashback(s) we see that Pegasi at their generation have just past the milestone of taking flight. With that in consideration, we notice that Scootaloo, of whom is quite head-strong and is shown to be 'good with manuveurs' has yet to achieve flight. The main quote now is from Applejack, where she states she was 'younger than the cutie mark crusaders' when she got her cutie mark. We know that each of their flashbacks took place at the same time, and so if Applejack was younger than Scootaloo, and Rainbow Dash was older than Scootaloo, then we determine that Rainbow Dash (and Fluttershy) must be older than atleast Applejack, of whom many assume is one of the oldest herself.
This should be enough proof, but I just know that a lot of people without thinking will day "But surely Rainbow Dash is an advanced flier". What these people are forgetting is that we see Pegasi of the same generation as Rainbow Dash here who have also achieved flight, with Fluttershy being a late bloomer.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeletecont. However, one argument is that Applejacks line "Even younger hsn you fillies" could simply have meant that she was younger than Applebloom's age when she left for Manehatten, not that she was younger when she gained her cutie mark. Although judging by her dialogue in Manehatten I'd assume she didn't stay there for long,
by the way, watch Cutie Mark Chronicles over. On the stage for the play Rarity made costumes for, Cheerilee is there. Assuming that her and Twilight are the same age (throwing aside that Cheerilee is a teacher and Twilight is a student of Celestia's), that would make Rarity the same age as both Twilight and Cheerilee, or slightly older than Twi and slightly younger than Cheerilee. So the order of ages from youngest to oldest (judging by what I think and other comments) would be Applejack, Rainbow Dash, Pinkie Pie, Twilight, Rarity, Fluttershy.
ReplyDeleteHell all this math is making my head hurt. I'm gonna go watch some more ponies.
From KYM:
ReplyDeleteHater (n.):
A person that simply cannot be happy for another person’s success. Instead of giving acknowledgment in courtesy, a hater often pursues his/her point by exposing a flaw in the target subject. Hating, the result of being a hater, is not exactly jealousy. The hater doesn’t really want to be the person he or she hates, rather the hater wants to knock somelse [sic] down a notch.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWell I look at the Maturity displayed by each of the ponies (not offending bronies in anyway shape or form because we are just trying to get a perspective on how old we can make them out to be.) Rarity, Applejack and Fluttershy have always seemed to show the most maturity in the group, but because Rarity and Applejack tend to forget themselves when competition arrives it's safe to assume they’re still fairly young. Fluttershy is still shy and working on social skill which suggests to me that she is still quite young as well, although she was in flight school at the same time as Rainbow Dash she might have been held back because of her weak flying skills. That leaves Rainbow Dash, Twilight Sparkle and Pinkie Pie. Although Twilight shows immaturity in the show at points she still it one of the most level headed in the group which leads me to believe that she is older than Rainbow Dash and Pinkie Pie (only a little though) Twilight has also done a LOT of studying which might account for her increased maturity levels. Rainbow Dash is next in line, she often is reckless and has a bad temper, but she shows maturity and strength when her friends are in danger (element of harmony.) Finally, Pinkie Pie, who shows the least amount of maturity and displays insecurity often, can be pinpointed as the youngest. Although Pinkie grew up on a rock farm and maybe immature just to make up for those sad years I still think that her level of maturity when her friends are in danger puts her as the youngest. So if they're young adults 18+ and Fluttershy is older than Pinkie Pie here's my estimation
ReplyDeleteRarity (20 born in the early months jan-feb)
Fluttershy (20 born in late spring apr-may)
Applejack (20 born in late summer aug-sep)
Twilight Sparkle (20 born in mid fall sep-oct)
Rainbow Dash (20 born in early winter nov-dec)
Pinkie Pie (19 born in late winter jan-feb)
:D
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ReplyDeleteClear condensed discovery my ass.
ReplyDeleteI would go into all the reasons why this article's complete BS, but I'd just be saying what every one else has said in this chat.
So instead, I'll guess their ages on my own.
Also keep in mind, my theory of pony age progression is as follows:
They age at the same rate as humans but mature faster, which explains why some ponies are in their early/mid teens and are able to own houses, like the main six.
Pinkie Pie- 14 (3/4)
Twilight Sparkle- 15 (1/4)
Rainbow Dash- 15 (2/4)
Fluttershy- 15 (3/4)
Applejack- 16 (1-4)
Rarity 16 (2-4)
@Fuzzybatyeah, they'd have to be in their early 20's to qualify as "young adults" setting theor ages in the teenage range just doesn't fit right. And I'd say they age much the same as humans, given the various ranges of the characters, such as the baby Cake twins, the Cutie Mark Crusaders, the Mane Six, and the the older-than-dirt Granny Smith.
ReplyDelete