Cereal Tries His Hoof At A Discussion Post Edition.
So: I know there are a lot of fiction writers that visit this site. I know because half the news posts are stories. It's not hard to miss, guys. You can't sneak these things past me. Before you know it, it'll drive me to write fics, too, and... oh, wait.
Anyway, back to it. One of my favorite authors once wrote a long diatribe on the difference between fantasy fiction and science fiction. He brought up a lot of good points, and made a lot of good comparisons between the two genres, but I'll condense it down for you into something immediately useable: there really is no difference between the two.
Bullshit, Cereal! No, listen. Let me lay this out for you. Fantasy fiction and science fiction are both forms of what is called speculative fiction. That is, they're both about things that are not real at this present moment.
To put it bluntly: fantasy fiction is about things that could never happen, and science fiction is about things that could happen. Both explore human stories and human psychology in an alien environment. The only difference between the two is the methods. In fantasy, you do it by rubbing a lamp. In science fiction, you do it by pushing a button. That's the only thing keeping them apart.
So, here's the clincher. Ponies are fantasy, therefore I'm ready to assume that most of you also like science fiction to a degree. What do you think about the genre? Do you hate it? Love it? Have you written anything in it? Let's discuss!
151 comments:
First?
ReplyDeleteI love science fiction. I've read almost every book of the classic author Isaac asimov. Now I'm planning to read Ender's saga, abother great example of science fiction.
ReplyDeletedefinition here
ReplyDeleteI've read a bit of science fiction myself, and although I honestly have a bit of trouble finding anything better than dime-a-dozen paperbacks that pretty much rip everything off from something else, what I have managed to find that was good was, well... good. I'm sure I'm just looking in the wrong places, but the only problem I have with sci-fi is finding the real quality stuff.
ReplyDeleteAs far as writing it, nope. I'd do it, if I could possibly begin to wrap my head around all the crap I'd have to do. Universe-building, and since it's sci-fi I'd have to stick to... science. And I'm not too good at science. As it is, sci-fi is waaaaay too far over my head to write, but I can enjoy some well-written examples of it just as easily as I can a good fantasy story.
Star Wars. I'm a huge fan, and I think it generally gets placed into the Sci-Fi category, and yet it is primarily a fantasy, it blurs the lines to a great extent. That said, In general I read more of what would be considered Fantasy then Science Fiction. I however, agree with you Cereal, they're the same genre once you strip them down to their basics.
ReplyDeleteHeh. Anyway, you're right about the similarities. Any differences people may perceive are in execution. I think it's entirely possible to have science fiction and fantasy elements co-exist, but doing so is a tricky thing. Star Wars did it right.
ReplyDeleteSci-Fi is best... Fi...
ReplyDeleteI dunno. I love Halo though. Like, I could relay the whole story if I wanted to. Speaking of Halo, how has there not been a Cross-Over of one yet? Seriously, I expected a Halo one long ago. You disappoint me internet. Now go to your room and think about what you have done.
Wait, were we talking about something?
FIRST! Also, I hate fiction and will never ever write any fiction in my life.
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm only here to kill time while waiting on a new Save button (curse you, Master Lyra), but I'll throw in my two bits.
ReplyDeleteI honestly haven't read much science fiction, but I've usually had little interest in what I have read. About the only sci-fi novel I really got into was Ender's Game, and I enjoyed it thoroughly. I haven't found much else out there that seems interesting, but I'm always keeping an eye out, and always listening for suggestions.
Really, though, I think I kinda agree with what you're saying here. Sci-fi to me is just a method of telling a story, rather than describing the actual story itself. For example, one book can have a massive dragon war while another has intergalactic bounty hunters, but they can essentially tell the same coming-of-age story. It's just different mediums of communication. As long as the base story is done well, then I think I'd enjoy it regardless of how it's presented.
In written works, I only like Hard Science Fiction. Science fiction that isn't Hard is really lame to me, and I just can't get into it usually. Plus, I love the tendency in Hard sci-fi for everyone to be geniuses, and sit around having long complicated conversations about whatever.
ReplyDeleteIn television, I like sci-fi well enough I guess. I don't really have an opinion on it different from anything else really.
I've written sci-fi in the sense that I've written fantasy where the technology level is not randomly medieval-esque. I don't know, does that count? Is the DnD setting of Eberron sci-fi at all, because it was kinda like that.
@Narwhals' Bend
ReplyDeleteYou're not really good at getting Firsts, are you? I'm just saiyan'
Science fiction has always been a bigger and better to me than fantasy. I think the main reason is science fiction just seems bigger, while not all science fiction stories don't always involve different planets, solar systems, or in some cases space travel at all, the feeling is still there that humanity has advanced further.
ReplyDeleteIts already been said that the thought that someday science fiction could be reality, but the fact that we can still wonder in awe about these things just gives a nice realistic edge.....although i seem to recall we were supposed to have hover cars by now =/
Sci-fi be the best damn form of fiction ever! Issac Asimov - brilliant; Frank Herbert - brilliant; Iain M. Banks - my personal favourite. Really, we need more Sci-Fi pony fics. Not revamps, like Star Wars ponies or Star Trek ponies, but additions, like, say, the Culture meet the ponies. That'd be interesting, to say the least, and downright enlightening, to say the most.
ReplyDeleteI'm neutral, but I enjoy Fantasy more.
ReplyDeleteSci-fi is best fi! MLP needs more science fiction in it...I kid, I kid. Mostly.
ReplyDeleteScience fiction is one of my favorite genres ever. Like you said, it's about things that COULD happen. I'm one of those people who loves to speculate on where the human race is heading, whether it be things like a nuclear war, alien interaction, or just the ability to have internet everywhere.
ReplyDeleteFor example, I've always thought that space wars would be fought with to things, Thermal Lasers fired in a continuous beam (instead of bullets like in star wars), and Rail Guns.
I've always thought that a Nuclear War wouldn't be completely destructive of the world, that certain areas would survive and even keep some fauna.
The idea of the future fascinates me and makes me want to see where we are heading. Sci-Fi tends to do that, and as such I love it.
I personally was raised on a steady, healthy, diet of all of the best Sci-Fi since the original Star-Trek, me Mamon is a big fan o' the Sci-Fi.
ReplyDeleteI'm an absolutely big fan of science fiction. Any kind of science fiction, from hard sci-fi to absolutely goofy space opera, I just love it. I grew up thriving on books on space, science fiction, and wanting to be an astronaut, and even though that dream never happened, I still havea soft spot for it.
ReplyDeleteAs for writing it, well...uh...keep your eyes open.
I don't read or write science-fiction, but I enjoy Star Wars and Star Trek: Next Generation as much as the next guy. I also enjoy various sci-fi animes such as Trigun and Ghost in the Shell.
ReplyDeleteAll in all, I enjoy science-fiction, although I'm not by any means a die-hard fan.
I read a lot of science fiction. I just got done reading through Iain M Banks's Culture series and I though that it was a blast! I also enjoy the works of Charles Stross, Vernor Vinge, and Larry Niven just to name a few. My favorite book at the moment would have to be "Excession" by Banks. I just love the idea of super-intelligent spaceship AIs exchanging witty banter with one another.
ReplyDeleteIf I like anything fantasy or science fiction, it's not for the fantasy/sci-fi content, but for the psychological elements. Evangelion, or Gurren Lagann, for example. I find the concept of giant mechs to be a pathetic ploy for attention in anime. But both Evangelion and Gurren Lagann (and one could argue that the latter is a response to the former) deal more with the pilots and their problems. It's not about the mechs. There's an underlying message.
ReplyDeleteEvangelion is about learning to accept yourself for who you are and realize that despite what you may think of yourself, people are a lot more tolerant and accepting of you than you are of yourself.
Gurren Lagann, on the other hand, is about having to grow up and accept responsibility. It's about moving on and letting go of the past so you can become stronger.
Both have excellent things to say despite being part of a genre which is often riddiculed for its absurdity, and I like that.
Fantasy I'm slightly more tolerant of. I've read way more fantasy than I have sci-fi. Lord of the Rings, Inheritance Cycle, Elric Saga, etc. I like some classic sci-fi too, though (mostly Asimov).
Also, Star Trek: The Next Generation = BEST SCI-FI TV SERIES EVER!
ReplyDeleteAs a reader, I actually prefer science fiction to fantasy. As a writer, I greatly prefer fantasy. Here's why:
ReplyDeleteResearch.
As a reader, I greatly appreciate all the extra work that authors must go through to make world believable. Because we see the story as a possible future for us, we are looking for logical extensions of the world we currently live in. If there are starships capable of traveling at a speed faster than light, we expect there to be some sort of back story, even if it is just a sentence or two, explaining through what method we have told Einsteinian physics to go take a hike.
This isn't necessary with magic. I'm not saying that there isn't any need for research at all, mind you. The best systems of magic are logical and well defined. But there isn't the need to make sure that it is possible; that's why it is magic, after all.
I've tried writing original science fiction. It's very hard for me. Fantasy, on the other hand, relaxes those rules enough for me that I'm able to get to the important part of having the characters interact with each other and the world. That's why, while I enjoy both fantasy and science fiction, I am more impressed and am able to enjoy science fiction more.
@Ivan2294
ReplyDeleteWhat about DS9?
Halo, EVE-Online and Ponies. That is my casual life in a nutshell.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteNever seen it, but I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY WANT TO!!!!
I do happen to like sci-fi, but I'm not like a science fiction junkie.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Cereal. I read old paperback sci-fi and fantasy novels, and have for a while. Sci-fi isn't always about star trekking, wars, or traveling the cosmos. It generally can be futuristic technology or futuristic fantasy. In my opinion, there is only one subgenre, and that is full on fantasy. Fantasy that is no where near possible and cannot be. It is a tiny section and have only found a few books worth of the title.
ReplyDeleteI prefer Realistic Sci-Fi over regular Sci-fi or Fantasy, but that's just because of my aforementioned fascination with the future. Sure fighting a Dragon firing laser cannons is awesome, and so are ponies. But the idea of actual alien interaction in a realistic, non-hostile way fascinates me even more!
ReplyDeleteI've never read much science fiction before, I have read fantasy fiction though. Besides what Cereal said, I don't think there is that much difference between the two.
ReplyDeleteI kind of get the feeling the Equestrian universe is a blend of fantasy and sci-fi. There is 'science' there, but magic mixes in with it a lot. The prescence of magic and talking ponies is enough on it's own to make the fantasy tag appropriate too.
Does anyone else think the show has a mix of both sci-fi and fantasy?
Sci-Fi = Machines/Computers/mechas/typical 'Futuristic' ideas
ReplyDeleteThey also are quite often (but not always) mainly focused in on how the technologies work, as much as the actual story.
Fantasy = Basically a lack of said things, or a played down technological factor, in favour of swords and sorcery. (OK, not just swords and sorcery, I'm just generalising here.)
And when the two come together, you get such hybrid sub-genres like Steampunk, and whatnot.
A common theme that they both share is, as it was said, a series of things that are not possible at this current time.
However, does this not seem a tad void, as we are talking about fiction here?
Whatever, I'll move on.
Also, we see the common themes of utopian/dystopian societies (See: Every Sci-fi/Fantasy story ever) among other sub-themes which I can't be bothered to all name, but are in the proximity of "End of the World" and "We need a Hero in such dark times."
So really, we can come to the conclusion that the only real difference between the two 'genres' is the world they are set in, the stories, no matter how much you want to argue, come from a select bowl of about 3-4 storylines.
Not that they're not fantastic, because they are, but do we not watch Sci-fi/Fantasy as much, or even more, for the worlds they're set in, rather than the horribly cliched stories?
I know I do. And I enjoy the cliched stories too.
After all, isn't a Genre merely just a strict repetoire of elements that it has to follow?
At least, that's my take on it.
Science fiction is my absolute favorite! I'm a major bibliophile, and while I love all kinds of fiction (classic and otherwise), I like speculative fiction best, and nothing can really top a piece by Heinlein or Dick or Asimov or Wells in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI'm also a big fan of Stargate, Doctor Who, and other sf shows.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteOther than their hands don't magically hold up items. No, not really.
Although I guess the sonic rainboom kinda counts...
I like both of them. I have written (or rather, thought about writing) more fantasy than science fiction. However, one of my favorite writers of all time is considered to be science fiction-y.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the idea they are basically the same, but with some differences in terms of how things work. Look at Mass Effect. It's basically fantasy, just that the fantastical events have different explanations (or even explanations at all).
I like Science Fiction, and while MLPFIM is fantasy, it doesn't take all that much to turn the FIMverse into science fiction. Just make a few judicious re-interpretations of canon statements, apply a little (or alot) of sufficiently advanced technology (technobabble really) to explain the magic, and invent a plausible backstory, and voila! the FIM-verse is now a Sci Fi setting!
ReplyDeleteIn fact, you can do this for just about any fantasy setting, which is why the only real difference between fantasy and sci fi is style.
To quote Rarity: "It's all in the presentation!"
I've always found the differences between the two to be semantic rather than material, with the most frequent changes being based on terminology differences rather than structural ideals. For example, a typical Sci-Fi story will advance the plot through Deus Ex Machinas and MacGuffins that they will explain away as being "capable because of science" or "advances in technology."
ReplyDeleteYour typical Fantasy story will advance the plot through Deus Ex Machinas and MacGuffins that they will explain away as being "based in myth" or "your destiny" or "magic."
As such, the only real importance is whether they are internally consistent with themselves. Magic A does Thing A and Science B does Thing B.
The only real exception to this I can think of is the truly hardcore Sci-Fi stories, like some of the works by Robert A. Heinlein, which I wouldn't even call Science Fiction so much as Speculative Fiction with a science basis.
Science fics in MLP universe? Nope, it does not fit at all. Problem with MLP is that it has unique and authentic conception of the universe in a first place and any science fiction will ruin it immediately no matter what. Yes, it will, without any "No". Problem is that you eitehr accept it or not.
ReplyDeleteI don't. Well, I don't read fanfics at all, but I've heard about "abacus" thing and similar fics. This is the worst example of fanfiction.
And yes Cereal, there isa difference. Your opinion is just... yours opinion. There is a lot of opinions but there is also and a reason why such genres separated in a first place.
I have no preference. I play fantasy video games (WC3, League of Legends, World of Warcraft, etc), presentish video games (Team Fortress 2, Left 4 Dead, Age of Empires, etc) and futuristic video games (Planetside, Starcraft, Quake, UT, etc).
ReplyDeleteAs long as it's a good story the genre doesn't really matter imo.
I write sci-fi, watch sci-fi films, read novels, play games... I love the genre. Mostly, anyway. Never got into the whole "space" (english word for SPAAAAAAAAAACE) -thing, but rather on futuristic societies on earth, like Equilibrium (Haven't seen it? Fix that.) Even 2019 was a blast. Not The Quiet Earth, but still. They don't quite fall into the same category though... I guess Quiet Earth was more "atmospheric post-apocalypse."
ReplyDeleteStill, I enjoyed Starship Troopers, Avatar and alike... I guess "regular" space doesn't always do it for me. I guess for every Moon or Screamers, you get a Solar Crisis or Mission to Mars.
I gotta stop naming movies at the top of my head. It makes me feel like a douche who thinks he knows everything.
That is, they're both about things that are not real at this present moment.
ReplyDeleteCorrection: They're both about STORIES that did not happen at this present moment. Otherwise Tom Clancy novels would be non-fiction.
You know, it's not true, at least anymore, that sci-fi deals with what could be. There are works of sci-fi which couldn't happen in the future, namely works of sci-fi which deal with explicitly different laws of physics.
ReplyDeleteOff the top of my head, Celestial Matters is a hard sci-fi book that is set in a world where the laws of Physics work like they do as described by people like Aristotle and Ptolemy, (with Taoism thrown in, but since the main character is Greek we don't get a good explanation of that) with awesome things like a space-ship made out of a piece of the moon, the protagonists on a journey to collect celestial fire from the sun, and where the idea of spontaneously generating humans is a military idea seriously considered and given a lot of research.
There's also The Age of Unreason which is a quadrillogy (also arguably hard sci-fi) set in a 18th century where basically, Alchemy actually works.
Its hard for me to not love both Science Fiction and Fantasy when you grow up in a household of Star Trek/Wars fans and read Dragonlance/Shannara Books. That said, I have different opinions on each one, For Science Fiction, I generally like to watch/play it rather then read it, because its usually funner to learn something while watching AND Sci Fi has the best Eye and Mind Candy.
ReplyDeleteBut its the opposite for Fantasy, I generally like my fantasy in Books and Games, and the reason is very simple: Not many movies/shows do fantasy good, fact is most of them do it horribly.
I like sci- fi although I don't go in for the really heavy stuff. i prefer sci fi to fantasy but decent fantasy is also good.
ReplyDeleteI do like to think of the possibilities the future holds from time to time though
I love sci-fi, and primarily write in that field when I try my hand at it.
ReplyDeleteAlso...that definition of the two sounds like something Brandon Sanderson said. Were you quoting him in your post?
I love Sci Fi. If there were no ponies I would totally go Science Fiction only. Most of my bigger plans, of what I want to draw in the future involve Sci Fi.
ReplyDeleteI prefer a realistic, "hard", Sci Fi over a soft one. I love things, that are possbile in the future. My favourite kind of Sci Fi is the one, that plays a few decades in the future. In a world, that is almost as ours, only with few futuristic details, that sets it apart from now.
I love science fiction. Both in movies and video games. I've been watching a lot of science fiction shows lately, like Doctor Who and Farscape.
ReplyDeletePlus, Science fiction is really the only thing I write, maybe because it's the only thing I can write well.
I dislike labels that are needlessly arbitrary, most fiction is about things that have never happened nor ever will,speculative fiction could just as easily be branded liberal for all that would imply.
ReplyDeleteFor most people fantasy and scifi mean Tolkien-like and Rodenberry-like respectively.
Philip K. Dick once defined science fiction as a speculative piece based on an ORIGINAL premise or theme, and set in an alternate world, though possibly one predicated on our own. Under this definition, much of what is typically considered science fiction actually falls under other categories like fantasy.
ReplyDelete@Saurian
ReplyDelete^THIS
Fantasy is so horrible in TV.
HORRIBLE
They only TV program related to Fantasy I've enjoyed is the anime 'Spice and Wolf'.
BUT IT'S BLOODY FANTASTIC.
It's just THE BEST
I think the real reason why people think there is a major difference in the two is that since Sci-Fi is about things that COULD happen, it is usually about things in the future, which is what could is about.
ReplyDeleteFantasy is about things that couldn't happen, and as such it tends to draw on old mythologies which means most of the time it's based on olden times.
You could write a story about a knight stumbling upon a UFO and it would technically still be more Sci-Fi than Fantasy.
Conversely, you could make a movie about a rogue U.S. Delta Force squad fighting magical talking Griffons and it would be more Fantasy than Sci-Fi.
I've been a long time lover of both styles of fiction.
ReplyDeleteStar Trek: The Next Generation is one of my all time favorite tv series, and The Matrix is one of my favorite movie trilogies, and I love most of Michael Crichton's novels. Also I have a pretty big game collection which is fairly evenly divided across both styles in a variety of genres.
Considering I grew up with a mother who was a Trekkie, and I'm a die hard Star Wars & Doctor Who fan... yeah. I love Sci-fi.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I should mention that my own "A New Breed" story treads a fine line with Sci-fi and Fantasy both being represented there (in such a way super hero comic-books have gleefully mixed for ages).
ok. i don't have long, but here's my two bits.
ReplyDeletei love science fiction. i love fantasy. i think they're different.
science fiction, for me, is about the study of society, by looking at what we have now, and reflecting it in a distorting mirror, to bring to light some parts, make others shrink away, and give a different perspective. the most common way of doing this is to add a new piece of technology (cities in flight adds two, for example, and looks at society in 10, 100 and 1000 years (approximately), or as is more common in "ten seconds to the future" sci-fy (don't even get into that debate) makes a specific event happen. this can be a terrorist attack (the excellent little brother) or giving humans magic (blurring the lines of scify and fantasy, though if done well, brilliantly. discworld, if strata is considered canon). all of these hold the authors mirror up to the world to either get their views on the world across (little brother), give you laughs (discworld) and/or make a good story (name pretty much any).
as for hard/soft scify, something around the middle ground tends to get me. I hope to be a physics major, so saying"what if neutrinos interacted with matter" tends to get my goat, but if it actually has equations printed to explain the science, it generally detracts from the story.
as for fantasy, it tends to be more about escapism for me, though scify does this well (uglies, though it does the politics admirably as well). in fantasy the society is almost invariably spun off one of a few based in the feudal era (yes, there are exceptions, but they're in the minority) and as such have little to do in the way of holding a mirror to the world. i still love reading them though.
in addition, anypony got recommendation? i like politics (left/large amounts of freedom) in my stuff, along with good plots, which are always the most important stuff. 10 secs into the future is best.
@ Anon 3:23
ReplyDeleteIf you don't read Fanfictions, then why would it effect you if others implemented sci fi elements into their stories? It's up to the author to determine if it meshes well or not, and there is already a fair deal of science in MLP as is( They know about astral phenomena like meteor showers and comets, have in at least one case low level computers, and treat Magic of all things as a researched science!).
As to Science fiction, Fantasy, Science Fantasy and so on, all subsets of Speculative fiction, and very vital to literature as a whole.
Any fan of literature and reading would be mad to not support them.(Even if it's not to ones taste)
Star Trek!!! The best of the best. Great characters, awesome special effects (in the recent movie at least), and TOS dealt a great deal with society's problems. It was also the first show to have an interracial kiss. And, of course, the scifi was almost always interesting.
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of another great cartoon.
ReplyDelete(Also, Ducky Momo is a great allegory for us bronies!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dq5wOrbLFU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAA72528Mgc&feature=related
Star Wars, Star Trek, Mass Effect, then there's a few Sci Fi things that aren't as far out there, but they have enough "Un-real" things to be considered Sci Fi, and that's about it. I limit most of my fantasy fiction to Eragon (and I barely remember Eragon's plot even though I've read every book) and video games.
ReplyDeleteAbout the definition of Sci Fi versus Fantasy Fiction, you could make the argument that through science you could do anything. What if the lamp had sensors on it that produced a holographic genie that could change the number of protons/neutrons/electrons in oxygen molecules to give you whatever you wished for? What if someone invented a glove that could speed up the molecules in front of it, effectively creating fire?
I enjoy science fiction. In a way it gives our society something to aspire to, if you understand what I am saying.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI like both Fantasy and Sci-Fi, however, I happen to like Fiction more because I like exploring the laws of magic, the fictional property of the universe, rather than exploring physics and the rules of this world.
ReplyDeleteI don't care about setting, as long as the story is an enjoyable escape from reality with an interesting plot that keeps me engaged.
ReplyDelete1984, Clockwork Orange, A Day in the Life of Ivan Denosovich, Plague Dogs, Artemis Fowl, Discworld, Ender's Game, Warhammer (fantasy and 40k), Mortal engines, Animorphs, Isaac Asimov short stories, Sherlock Holmes... the list goes on and on.
I'd claim that real-life works tend to be one of the few things I avoid, but the copy of seven pillars of wisdom sitting on my desk argues otherwise.
Oh, and although it's tempting to say that "fantasy fiction is about things that could never happen, and science fiction is about things that could happen", just how much of star wars could really happen? Oh, and "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!". Reference: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20081205
*hopes that somewhere somepony is working on a Twilight SPARK-le fic...*
I LOVE IT ALL!!!! From the Federation to the Empire, I can go from reading the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe to watching Godzilla with out blinking an eye!
ReplyDelete....well I don't like Twilight or Harry Potter but everything else rocks!
Ctrl-F
ReplyDeleteVance
5 results! Oh, wait... advanced, advanced, advanced... advanced.
/disappoint.
The people who get upset about the difference are usually the ones with a pretty shallow understanding of science.
ReplyDeleteWhen you see a movie about spaceships set in "the distant future of the year 2000" what should upset isn't the date, its that manned space travel is woefully inefficient and the premise would be much more plausible if the characters were being streamed to Jupiter through an open internet port. Most scifi is fantasy by the time of its writing.
Science fiction tends more toward deep psychological or social themes, where fantasy leans toward the epic format.
ReplyDeleteJudging by how quickly a brown earth pony with a cutie mark shaped like an hourglass was dubbed 'Doctor Whooves', I think it's safe to say this fandom likes Sci-Fi.
ReplyDeletePersonally I love both genres, and both ends of the scale in it. I like the more fantastical stuff like Star Wars and the more 'realistic' (I use the term lightly) stuff like Moon. I've always enjoyed Star Trek, and watched Doctor Who like a true Brit since the show was revived in 2005.
On the matter of writing Sci-Fi, I have a small side-project about the daily life of the crew of the S.S. Inebriated Cockroach, a ship specifically built around making, shipping and selling alcohol.
One of my friends always has a go at me for ignoring genre fiction. My thing has always been that the really good stuff from genre, like The City & the City by China Mieville, transcends whatever genre, crime/sci-fi/fantasy, it's supposed to be in, and it's mostly that stuff that is worth paying attention too.
ReplyDeleteSci-fi for me, has always been stuff like Phillip K Dick, where the concepts are really interesting, but the actual writing sucks.
But I've finally decided to give sci-fi a try. Only thing is, it's such a huge category that I've got no idea where to start, so would welcome any recommendations.
Couldn't ponies be science fiction becuase like, humans could all die and then ponies become the dominent intelligent species? :P
ReplyDeletePretty neutral on the topic. I've read more fantasy than scifi mainly because I got hooked on TSR's D&D novels as a kid and I haven't found the scifi equivilant just yet. Though I did read a book of short stories by the creator of Dragons of Pern which were essentially fantasy disguised as scifi.
ReplyDeleteMainly my only vice is I need to like the setting or the characters for me to get into it.
I read a lot of Science fiction, good books I can recommend that I read recently are "The Algebraist" and "Dragon's Egg".
ReplyDeleteThe Algebraist is grand scale science fiction that focuses on how a galaxy-spanning government might lwork with only limmited FTL technology and what a species living on gas giants might look like and do. I highly recomment this one because it has character development, something scifi stores often lack.
Dragon's Egg is a classic about intelligent life that evolves on a pulsar and has a different perception of time then humans. Voyager made a (bad) episode of the plot, but the original is much better. This one lacks character development, but it is a neccessity of the story.
I think this sort of story is really where science fiction shines. Fantasy can be very generic with the swords and the magic and differnet fantasy races and so on, science fiction generally tries harder to explore some new concept.
Of course there is also space fantasy or rather opra. Star Wars is one example, it even includes swordplay and magic. For me, Star Wars is a fantasy story, but a good one. I can read goof fantasy, but basic fantasy bored me easily. Aspecially if magic is used to fuel the plot too much, because it feels lazy to me. In SciFi, technology often does the same thin,g but sicne it is technology I can realte more to the explanation.
This is incidentally why I like pony magic. With the way cutie marks work, it is better explained then many other types of magic.
I did write a 2 page essay on why I like sci-fi, but then, reading through it, it contradicted its self a lot, which was odd, so I decided to start again.
ReplyDeleteI love sci-fi, I love fantasy, I love historical fiction, I love thrillers...
I think I just love a good story...
I love being sucked into another world, Everything from Raymond E Fiest's works to Stieg Larsson...
However, sci-fi has something a little extra.
But first I should say, I am an engineer, I like to make things more efficient, faster, cleaner, smarter, easier. I want to see humanity dragged into the future (kicking and screaming if needs be).
Sci-fi lets me pretend, just for a moment that it has actually happened, that we really can visit alien planets, that we really do have 8 man spaceships that any odd Sergeant turned smuggler can buy and computer chip implants in our brains, that we really do have depressed robot companions.
I know that one day we will have those things and I know know that this will not be in the next 60 years.
I know that in their time, there will be an engineer, just like me, who is dreaming of seeing something even further advanced.
And for a moment... I am saddened, because I know I will never get to see this, my children might, but never me but then I also have hope, because someone wrote this down, someone else shares my dreams...
And I let myself get lost in a world of everything I hope for....
Wow, I rambled...
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to re-watch Firefly and tear up when I realise there will never be another episode of it again...
@Ivan2294
ReplyDeleteI hate to correct you, but I believe Stargate SG-1 is actually the best Sci-Fi series ever. or maybe Babylon 5 =P
@Tears
ReplyDeleteI take offense to your assessment of Philip K. Dick's writing.
Regardless, if you like social & political themes, Robert A. Heinlein's stuff is some of the best written I've ever read. Then there's Asimov, who's a bit more genre, mostly because his stuff has been the basis for genre scifi for decades.
I am not that fond of science fiction literature wise. Plainly because of the douchebag Jules Verne.
ReplyDeleteI am more a fan of Magical Realism and Fantasy on that area since it tends to be more Poetry oriented.
Multimedia wise it's awesome, and like Silent Machina, it's a good way to explore the human psyche. And I am so not talking about neither Star Wars or Dead Space now.
Cowboy Bebop is a better example of how science fiction is done right.
Well I'll tell you what i think. i think we need to see Babylon 5 and MLP cross over! IV BEEN WAITING FOR THAT HOO HA FOR MONTHS! think about it, fluttershy as delenn. Celestia the vorlon.
ReplyDeletecraziness would be fantastic!
I personally prefer science fiction, specifically of the more "cult" variety. The main reason being that, at least as far as the meatier stories go, I prefer things to have a bit more of an explanation than "magic!" It doesn't have to be incredibly detailed or anything, but when I read more Fantasy it kind of bothered me when authors would make some thing happen without much of a description as to how or why it happened. I can read a story with "magic," but there needs to be a set of rules that makes sense rather than everything happening willy-nilly. Not to mention, I prefer stories that bring up a lot of social issues and the like rather than just epics, and sci-fi has a greater tendency to deal with that as opposed to fantasy.
ReplyDeleteThat said, while I generally prefer sci-fi, I still like fantasy. But it either has to be very light-hearted, fun stuff (like ponies!) or well thought out, unlike the "general" fantasy which I was talking about. Likewise, I don't always like Sci-fi either, there's some pretty stupid stuff mixed in as well.
I love Sci-Fi. If it's well done it's probably the most awesome genre out there. I don't know where I'd be without shows like Star Trek and Doctor Who, or without the plethora of superhero comics based in sci-fi, such as Green Lantern, that I've read.
ReplyDeleteI also love Fantasy. I don't know where I'd be without Movies like Lord of the Rings or Beastmaster or the plethora of Fantasy based comics, such as Thor, that I've read.
@Dat
ReplyDeleteVerne was not a science fiction writer: he was an adventure writer that happened to write some science fiction. In fact, I think a lot of so-called scifi is really just adventure or fantasy with science in it. Of course, I like it all...
I love science fiction, and I agree that when done right, doesn't need to be fundamentally different than fantasy.
ReplyDeleteI also disagree with and disapprove of people who insist that only "hard" sci-fi (aka: stuff packed with science and military stuff) should be taken seriously. You can make a wonderful sci-fi setting and story while still maintaining the emotional depth and whimsy of fantasy.
I know I commented on sci-fi, but I'd like to say I'm a huge fantasy fan as well. Both sci-fi and fantasy are great.
ReplyDeleteI love The Elder Scrolls series to death. And as far as I know, TES is the best fantasy RPG game out there.
Fantasy (dragons, elves, magic, etc) doesn't appeal to me nearly as much as science fiction (aliens, robots, spaceships, etc), just because nearly every fantasy writer is just trying to do what Tolkein did. I don't even like LotR that much, and I dislike thousands of books trying to BE LotR even more. I've found far more variation in works by Larry Niven, Philip K. Dick, Allen Steele, Robert Heinlein, and the likes, than I ever have with any random assortment of fantasy authors. If I want Lord of the Rings, I'll go read Lord of the Rings, not "Mary Sue's Adventures in Totally-Not-Middle-Earth."
ReplyDeleteThat said, Saga of the Noble Dead is really good and I urge people to check it out.
I like both fantasy and sci-fi...I also like mixes of the two.
ReplyDeleteI love both science fiction and fantasy. Science fiction contemplates what a civilization can accomplish through science and fantasy contemplates what any form of being can accomplish through supernatural means. Ponies is obviously fantasy, but there is nothing wrong with combining science fiction with fantasy in crossover and sci-fi fanfics. I agree that most fantasy media other than books is very bad quality, with the exception of children's shows and some movies based off of books.
ReplyDelete@Silent Machina
ReplyDeleteDon't worry, I have about 10 Phil Dick novels (VALIS? Wow). I really enjoy his books, I just meant that you don't read him for characters or dialogue as much as the ideas.
Would love to read some Heinlein, what would you recommend as jumping off point?
A lot of fantasy books can be really unoriginal, but that's not to say there isn't original fantasy out there. Granted, a lot of the better examples are supposedly written for "younger" audiences, but quite frankly, you can't outgrow a novel, and, hey, we watch ponies.
ReplyDelete@Tears
ReplyDeleteDepends on whether you want to start light or heavy. His better known stuff is in his future history: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Time Enough to Love, Stranger in a Strange Land, etc. but he's also written some lighter stuff, like Glory Road. I recommend it all.
@Cole
ReplyDeleteAgreed...some of the best fanfictions I have seen around are combinations of sci fi and fantasy.
I do hold that its very hard for movie producers to do a good job making movies off of books, case in point being the truly dreadful Eragon movie.
While I wouldn't want to make an attempt at a sci-fi MLP fanfic myself, Fics like 'Fallout: Equestria' prove that it can be done...and done well.
I have been reading a lot of science fiction and little fantasy since I was a little foal, for, you know, my fellow ponies, my father has pretty much scientific mindset (he even has a retort for cutie mark), so he taught me to look to the future (even fictional) and not to the past (especially fictional). Though I have read some fantasy books (only one, really, and it was bad), but my foalhood still was filled with spaceships and robots.
ReplyDeleteBut then I've got myself a computer with a lot of RPGs (not the bazookas) ang games of other genres to play. Gothic, The Elder Scrolls, Arcanum etc. In all these games I could become not just a pony, but a hero of fantasy world with a big sword in my mouth (I mean we are ponies, that's how we hold things (and think nothing perverted)). I haven't played too much sci-fi games (only some space strategies and some shooters). Now I, of course, play such fabulous game like Mass Effect and I can again enjoy dreaming about spaceships and galactic worlds and alien fillies.
Conclusion: Sci-Fi is awesome, maybe even 20% cooler than fantasy. I'm really looking forward to see FUTURE with my ownn eyes.
Stating the obvious (that's right, gentlecolts, it's obvious), your
The Most Evil Pony.
@Wheelworld
ReplyDelete"Correct"
>implying you're right. ^_^
@Wheelworld
ReplyDeleteI think its a tie between the two (SG-1 and Babylon 5) for awesomeness
In general, I love both pretty much equally, with a slight bias towards one or the other depending on my mood. Both have their merits as far as atmosphere and such goes. In fantasy stories you get the epic quest to stop the bad guy, with the climax of storming his castle for the final showdown. In sci-stories you get the cool electro-mechanical gadgets and the evil organizations.
ReplyDeleteAs for ponies, I find the concept of sticking them in sci-fi interesting and worth exploring, but I still mainly prefer keeping them in fantasy.
And yeah, when you think about it there is little difference between the two genres. The folks on TV Tropes actually have some really good points regarding this topic:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitletnnwhqnhdt9x?from=Main.ClarkesThirdLaw
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SufficientlyAnalyzedMagic
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceFictionVersusFantasy
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicVersusScience
I think there was another relevant article, but I can't find it. Hehe, I don't want it to sound like I'm just plugging the site or anything, but I think they can describe it better than I can in this space.
I've been looking over my library, both digital and book wise and I've realised something.
ReplyDeleteSci-fi works best in visual formats while fantasy is better when it is encoded as words, whether in a book or audible book for our brained to decode.
All the sci-fis I enjoy are films, TV shows, computer games.
Where as all the fantasies I enjoy are books...
And I think I know why, description.
When introducing a concept like magic it can generally be explained in quite easily, you think stuff, it happens and then you can slowly introduce the finer rules to it.
With technology that option is available, but its trickier.
With magic, it is generally one force and everypony who uses it taps from it with the same rules and the same limits.
But technology is different, every device does something else, looks like something else, lets take a nice simple one: the firefly class transport, she has two different types of engines that both carry very different functions, thus, both require their own description, in visual media you can see they are very different and how they work simultaneously.
Basically, sci-fi needs to introduce us to more things quickly, which either means that huge chunks are given over to explaining it and the story feels broken or very little is explained and you are left confused.
Fantasy is different, much of what fantasy portrays is stuff we already know, but with the inclusion of some other element... that element does require explanation but often it can be introduced slowly, say, as the mane character learns the art of magic, as (s)he learns, we learn. But everything else that is common to the world, swords, bows, armour, wagons, it doesn't require anything but a basic description as we already know what it is.
Of course, one thing this does not factor is how things that only provide small changes in technology would read, because I don't have any books like that.
Also, I'd like to point out, fiction is about something that didn't happen, not couldn't, hence why we include the genres...
@Silent Machina
ReplyDeleteThanks for the recommendations, I am going to leave it up to my local book store as to which one of those I read, but I'm going to buy one of those tomorrow.
I'm actually pretty excited to read some sci-fi, I read a great article recently where sci-fi authors were asked to pick their favourite novels, and all the books sounded amazing.
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/may/14/science-fiction-authors-choice)
@mooke
ReplyDeleteHuh. I'm actually the other way. I get the most out of written sci-fi, but tend to play more fantasy than I read.
I grew up with Lord of the Rings and Dune, and I appreciate both equally. I tend to read fantasy more than science fiction these days, mostly because the concepts in science fiction are harder for me to get behind. But I appreciate them both the same way.
ReplyDeleteI have read and written a lot of sci-fi, though my current sci-fi writing project is a pen and paper RPG where you play as a sentient space ship.
ReplyDeleteOne thing sci-fi can do that fantasy sometimes has trouble with is educate people. A magic spell is not somthing that may have real application in the world, but a vern cannon might (okay so that's a silly example, but you get my point).
I'm quite partial to science fiction, both in print and film.
ReplyDeleteI would argue i see some difference between science fiction and fantasy in that scifi mostly tends to fall within the more plausible, explainable realm. Fantasy tends to be more of a 'its magic, deal with it' kinda thing. Not to mention the tonal difference. But yeah, the line is ambiguous and there are alot of similarities.
Sci-fi is all good fun. In terms of literature, I lean more towards the classics: Wells, Verne, a bit of Bradbury. Big fan of sci-fi movies, though special mention goes to Aliens, mostly because it's in like my Top 10 Favorite Movies. See also: Twilight Zone. Cheesy as hell, and by God they knew it and exploited it.
ReplyDeleteScience-Fiction is my entire life. My dreams are filled with intergalactic empires vying for dominance, the lost technology and secrets of long-extinct, super advanced alien civilizations, attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion, etc. Next discussion.
ReplyDelete<(^^,)> Wells is amazing. Huge fan of classics, here.
ReplyDeleteI'm studying science fiction as part of a post graduate degree and I could talk about it for weeks without stopping. I love science fiction and just can't get enough of it, but I can be a bit picky about it because of all the hate critics sometimes unfairly throw at it (Star Trek technobabble or explaining magical tech with 'nano' is a big no for me).
ReplyDeleteI'm a decent fan of Sci-Fi. I haven't written anything about it, but then again, I haven't really written much fanfic stuff at all.
ReplyDeleteI can only really enjoy science fiction that doesn't take itself seriously at all. If there's any kind of technical aspect to the show, my demand for consistency eventually gets me to hate the work, because inevitably there's something wrong, either with the science, or the philosophy, or the economics.
ReplyDeleteWell, there's going to be something wrong with the science in pretty much every case...
ReplyDeleteOne of the most important aspects of scifi is dreaming about all the possibilities through suspension of disbelief.
I read an interesting article on fantasy / science fiction the other week. I think it was A History of Science Fiction by Adam Roberts.
ReplyDeleteEssentially it is thus: There are two subtly different mindsets that go behind science fiction and fantasy. They're separate from 'realist' fiction, but I wouldn't lump them both together despite both being non-realist. They represent - or did once - two strands of thought in Western culture. One is more the mystical, traditionalist, "Catholic" brand of belief. The other is an industrial, progressive, 'Protestant' viewpoint. This was, at least in the 19th Century, fairly accurate. The waters have been muddied by the likes of Dune and CS Lewis' sci-fi (sci-fi done in the fantasy tradition), and by Charles Stross' Atrocity Archives (fantasy as sci-fi). It's also worth mentioning that neither genre lives or dies with the West any more, but the origins of major works in the genre seem to hark back to this curious dualism. They're similar, but different. They don't quite have the same goals (see the arguments between Wells and Lewis), but they don't always have different goals either.
Speaking of essays/articles, check this out:
ReplyDeletehttp://downlode.org/Etext/how_to_build.html
It's fascinating.
Personally I write a lot of SF flavored RPG modules. I think SF written well is the best thing ever, but SF written poorly is terrible and makes the rest of literature hate the genre.
ReplyDeleteWhat does this *really* have to do with ponies though? If you want to set a writing challenge about SF ponies then set one damn it!
Science fiction is my most favorite type.
ReplyDeleteI mean I don't dislike anything but I like science fiction more than the others.
However in the end the overriding factor is always the author.
I like both and like how MLP:FIM has some kind of happy agreement between the two.
ReplyDelete@Silent Machina Think about it this way. If something abandons any pretence of making sense, I do too, and I don't worry about it. If it tries to make sense, I will expect it to--and when it doesn't, I'm left disappointed. There's very little that doesn't try to shove some technical mumbo-jumbo in though, so I mostly stay away from it.
ReplyDeleteToo much fantasy is "genre fantasy," in that it attempts to pander to one of a number of fairly consistent aesthetics, like sword and sorcery. Most of what is classed as science fiction is typified by the lack of these clear and arbitrary distinctions.
ReplyDeleteOf course there are still classes of what many call "science fantasy," where the aesthetic precludes any ideological depth.
Really not a sci-fi fan at all. EXCEPT: For the campy sci-fi shows, especially the British ones. Doctor Who I'm looking at you.
ReplyDeleteBeing a scientist myself, I get stuck on all of the physical impossibilities that most science fiction presents. To the average reader it may as well be fiction, but to a someone in graduate school or above the flaws become glaringly obvious. For that reason I can't read most science fiction unless it's accurate or coupled with fantasy (i.e. star wars).
ReplyDelete@Ivan2294
ReplyDelete>Implying I'm wrong
@Largefish10
True, I would find it hard to choose between the two
I like Science fiction, it adds new perspectives ( even if unrealistic ) and has it's own way to make things interesting.
ReplyDeleteOn the topic of suspending disbelief I can do this quite well and in that I count myself lucky. In basically every single type of fiction there are problems that would drive me up the walls if I let them but luckily I can ignore these things for the most part. Heh I can even play D&D 3.5 in the semi-generic setting without shanking any of the other players with a d4.
ReplyDeleteI'm an engineer, and WAAAAY into science, so I prefer sci-fi that focuses more on the thematic issues and dreams of possibilities without pretending to understand how it works, especially when what science is there is accurate, but I'm also a bibliophile, so I don't mind putting up with a certain degree of excess pseudoscience as long as the story is worth the wrongness.
ReplyDeleteTo me, the important difference between sci-fi and fantasy is the degree of internal consistency in the fictional world. What some people call the "hardness" of the story.
ReplyDeleteHard sci-fi follows a self-consistent set of rules relentlessly, allowing the rules to eclipse the characters in the story. Instead of telling us how the lead character dealt with a crisis, it tells us about the political consequences of inventing instant teleportation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Crowd), or how society would be different if an intelligent species evolved their societal norms on top of a different reproductive strategy (http://lesswrong.com/lw/y5/the_babyeating_aliens_18/), or how sentience could be an evolutionary handicap (http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm). That's what I love about science fiction, its ability to explore new ideas.
I think that distinction is far more important than whether the setting consists of swords & sorcery or spaceships & technology.
~Passer Palmatum
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMy previous post was meh.
ReplyDeleteWhat makes science fiction is really the "what if?" factor more than the setting. Science as a plot device does not make a story into science fiction.
Nate here. I love the comparison you made between the two. And do I like sci-fi? Well, I was a Star Wars nerd before I was a Brony XD
ReplyDeleteThe Brony has taken over o.o
*cough Cough* Well, IM a brony of science.... well uhm, just a person that deals a lot with Science fiction and I like it because that point you said, could be Real, and could be not too but what i try to do when i work on it is to make it possibly believable. And i agree with Silent Machina about using Science as a plot, that doesnt work alright. In my opinion the real thing is to make that feeling that could happen or that is possible, make a link with reality.
ReplyDeleteMy definitions of science fiction and fantasy are a little off. For me, If its a story with a setting to supplement the story, its Fantasy. If its a 398 page thesis on the possible geopolitical implications of relativistic speed weapons on post soviet western Russian organized crime, then its science fiction. Star Trek, for me, is fantasy. It even has Elves and Orks(with the serial number filed off.)
ReplyDelete(Firefly is the best)
I think the important thing with Science Fiction to separate it from outright Fantasy is a reasonable degree of Hardness, particularly in not having supernatural elements. When the science is, well, SCIENCE, that's when you have Science Fiction instead of Fantasy or... Science Fantasy, I guess? Something with Science Fiction trappings and Fantasy sensibilities?
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty flexible with regard to stories, as long as they're not real-world fanfiction.
ReplyDeleteWell I have a lot of Novels I truly love, but I guess the things that stand out the most for me would have to be Dune, and Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? So I guess you can say yes I am a big person for Scifi. I even went so far as to try to write a cyber punk novel but the problem is I don't know how to do cyber punk properly.
ReplyDeleteFiction is fiction yo! If the shit ain't real, it's fiction! Also, Philip K. Dick is awesome.
ReplyDeleteBut if forced to differentiate between the two I would agree with the Anonymous brony who said that it is the degree of hardness or consistency that differentiates the two. Although one should not think of hardness as being exclusive and anathema to characterisation. After all the real world is very, very hard and yet full of all kinds of characterisation and emotion.
I used to read almost exclusively fantasy, but now I read mostly sf.
ReplyDeleteHowever, what happens to stories, where, at the time, it was thought that it could happen, but we now know can't. I.e. a pre-Einstein story involving the light barrier(assuming that they exist0, or possibly any modern storied involving wormholes, stargates, teleportation, etc.? Are they simply reclassified, or still considered science fiction.
sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. fantasy fiction and science fiction are the exact same thing. the fact that star trek attempts to make extrapolations of speculative science doesn't make faster-than-light-travel or photon cannons any more real than gandalf shooting lightning bolts from his fingers or a ring that makes you invisible.
ReplyDeleteIt's all escapism, and it's all possible.
ReplyDeleteWho's to say that out there, there ISN'T a planet identical to Equestria? The universe is infinite, and that means, that without a doubt, it exists somewhere. And if the universe ISN'T infinite? Alternate dimensions.
It's such a prevalent trope in science fiction, which supposedly CAN happen, and a lot of Sci-Fi's have an episode where the crew ends up somewhere with something that simply cannot be explained by science. It's at THAT point, that Sci Fi and Fantasy Fi are one and the same.
And since Sci-Fi CAN happen, so can Fantasy.
So wait for us, Ponies. We'll get there. Just wait and see.
I love Sci-Fi more than fantasy, but that's mainly because a lot of Sci-Fi games have lasers and stuff, whereas a lot of fantasy games tend to be like. Hi Ork. Gnome. Elf. HERE ARE A BUNCH OF COOL MONSTERS AND NOW YOUR JOB IS TO KILL THEM ALL.
ReplyDeleteBut I don't want to kill them all.
What if I want to catch them?
What if I want an overly detailed breeding simulation?
What if I want to play as it?
But mainly because I don't really like getting too hung up on the concept of defeat->Death.
Lighter fantasy like MLPFiM tends to have defeat-> friendship or Defeat->Banishment/Conversion, and a lot of Sci-Fi does tend to have defeat-> End type of workings, but when a lot of things such as the player can be readily reconstructed in moments, it's not as frightening... Except getting into the question of at what point a computer becomes "living" but whatever.
For those who think MLPFIM can never be science fiction, consider how it deviates from standard fantasy (Ponies aside):
ReplyDelete1) Magic isn't treated as some external force. It's an inherent feature of every Ponies' (and a good many non-Ponies) biology.
2) Even without magic, Equestria is considerably higher tech than your standard fantasy setting. I peg it about early 20th century whereas most fantasy settings are stuck in some faux medieval level.
3) Ponies do scientific investigation even if Twilight Sparkle does it badly. The FIM-verse is very much a "Magic A is Magic A" setting even if we don't know what the rules are.
And to turn the setting science fictional, just replace some labels. Take Equestria and change "magical land" to a) Alternate Universe Earth, b) post-human future Earth, or c) alien planet. "Magic" such as it is becomes an alternate name of psychic powers, or advanced biological abilities engineered by some precursor race, or just naturally evolved abilities that have no real life Earthly equivalent.
Does that change anything in the show? No. Does it change how you LOOK at the show? Maybe. Depends on how you already think the setting works.
I like both, and usually the best stuff are the ones where the line between is blurred enough that it's hard to say which one the story was to begin with.
ReplyDeleteSciFi and Fantasy. Both fantastic genres in their own right. Which is I suppose where we get the name fantasy from... I'm rambling.
ReplyDeleteNow, I've been thinking as I've read through the comment, and I would say I'm more of a fantasy man. But there's something that just doesn't quite sit right with me with Cereal's original post. "Fantasy is about things that could never happen." I'm not saying magic and dragons and all that exist, they don't (I made myself sad), but I'd like to think that it's possible to write fantasy without the magic and mythical beasts. I can't think of any examples, and maybe that would come under historical fiction, but I think that if you have something set in a vague medieval setting, even if it is a made up land, you could call it fantasy. And just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it couldn't have.
Of course, I might have missed a memo somewhere where it states that Fantasy rule one is that it has to have magic or elves and the like. Fine by me, I prefer my fantasy that way.
Sci-Fi, now that's another kettle of fish (where did that phrase come from?...Rambling, sorry). I can't quite explain it, but I don't like Sci-fi as much. I still prefer it over things like crime stories and romances. Bu given a choice between a scifi book and a fantasy book, I'll take the fantasy. Given a choice between a scifi movie/tv-show/video game and a fantasy same list of stuff, it'll be harder to decide. It seems I prefer my scifi to stick to visual media, where you've got more senses to info-dump into. In books you've only got the ability to read about things, so complicated explanations have to come to the forefront. It's not that they're not there in visual media, but it's that you can get the information across in other ways. Someone mentioned above about Firefly and the engines, and that's what I'm talking about. We didn't have to sit through a lecture about how it all worked before we were allowed to play with our toy dinosaurs. Wait, mixed metaphor there a bit...
It might be that I'm a bit impatient when it comes to things like that, I generally want my plot and character development now, and maybe use it alongside world building, rather than having world building kept aside from the character development in a separate cage. Of course, it's ENTIRELY possible I've just read the wrong sort of sci-fi, and not all sci-fi has long-winded technical (even technobabble) explanations for everything the second it's introduced. I'm sure that's the case actually. But most fantasy I've read is able to keep the two together. Characters exploring a Spooky Haunted forest? Not only do we get to find out about the forest, but we can see the characters reactions to it. It's not quite the same as how being told warp-drives work. I'm not sure character reactions are quite the same when they're being told solid facts. Fantasy allows a little bit more wriggle room.
Oh right, this site has ponies. I guess I should talk about them?
Sci-fi and ponies. It has potential. But what we're mostly using it for is crossovers. This isn't a bad thing, just disappointing. I love that you guys love my favourite sci-fi things as well, but can't we be using our creativity for better purposes? Not just going "Hmm, what Babylon 5 character would each pony be?" Come on, we can do better than that, surely? Even if it means busting out the dreaded OCs?
Anyway, this rambling disjointed spur-of-the-moment post is ending. I hope it makes sense, I'm sorry if it doesn't, and if I got some details wrong, feel free to call me out on them.
Read the "Alchemyst" series about Nicholas Flamel. It's like reading a Sci-Fi/Fantasy Hybrid, and it's amazing!
ReplyDeleteAnother awesome series is "Young Wizards". Again, it is difficult to distinguish whether it is Sci-Fi or Fantasy. They perform "Magic" but they essentially explain it using existing theoretical science. I LOVE IT!
...I also love the idea of explaining magic...cuz you know, then I can do it in the future...
Oh man all this discussion is reminding me of The Flying Sorcerers by Gerrold and Niven.
ReplyDeleteEh. If the story is entertaining and lacks glaring negative traits, I'm good. Generally I find myself liking the fiction books though.
ReplyDeleteIn my personal opinion, it all matters on how it's done. I prefer when my sci-fi treats aliens as alien, spaceflight as a moderately big deal (yeah we can fly through space, but it takes time and is expensive), and there are complex relationships between factions and characters. In my opinion, examples of good Sci-fi include Babylon 5, Star Treck: The Next Generation, Deep Space 9, Non-Lucas Star Wars, Warhammer 40,000, and Mass Effect. Examples of BAD Sci-fi include Voyager, Enterprise, Lucas's newer Star Treck (especially since it's making some of the better stuff non-cannon in favor of stupid ideas), and HALO.
ReplyDeleteI always thought of sci-fi as fantasy, but with rules and consistency (which I appreciate quite a lot), so I consider well-made science fiction a lot better than fantasy.
ReplyDelete"To put it bluntly: fantasy fiction is about things that could never happen, and science fiction is about things that could happen." - I think this is inappropriate. For example, according to this, Star Trek would be Fantasy.
ReplyDelete>>Ctrl+f
ReplyDelete>>Honor Harrington
>>No results
Disappointed in you all
@AFistfulofApples
ReplyDeleteRobert A Heinlein warned against that kind of storytelling, the 'so tell me professor' sysmdrome. The easiest way to introduce the concepts that make it science fiction (like how the spaceship works) is to have a character ask the resident know it all and get an info dump.
Unfortunately, it stops the story dead. I'm like you, I love the info dumps, but when I write, I try to put the explanations within the story, 'show don't tell'. Having the ship take off, and adding a line about how the unobtainium fuel disintegrating into a massive stream of thrust energy is more involving than having someone say it.
"To put it bluntly: fantasy fiction is about things that could never happen, and science fiction is about things that could happen."
ReplyDeleteThis one caught my eye aswell. Some of the biggest scifi fandoms are actually dancing on the verge between the genres, like Star Wars.
As for my opinion.
As much as it may sound weird, the genre doesn't matter that much to me, it is the story and how the story is told that matters.
I admit usualy I am not into scifi, but there are scifi stories that entangle me and I just can't put them down/stop watching.(Babylon 5 comes to mind)
It's up to the talent of the writer to create a catching atmosphere and a story to enjoy.
Now, as for scifi vs. fantasy.
In general, I prefer fantasy. I have two reasons for that.
1) My father is an avid reader, we had lots and lots of books home and as a child, I was reading those that I found in our personal library. However, my father always prefered books "of reality", so that's what I was in contact with.
Until the day when I was browsing through the many books and burried deep I found an unopened package of the Lord of The Rings trilogy.
After I was done with the story, I was lost in the world of fantasy forever.
2) In my everyday life I am forced to live a very rational life, due to various circumstances. I like to escape into worlds where rationality is not a "must". Ancient runes of power, shapeshifting dragons, creatures more ancient than time itself, fireballs, godly interventions, I'm fine with all these and I love to dwell deep into a world filled with adventure of the unknown.
In my head there's a different distinction between the two genres.
I believe that people who prefer fantasy actually posses the ability of keeping a more open mind towards worlds and stories that have no rational ground at all and will never have.
These people put less emphasize on "scientific assurance", even in everyday life, and I have certainly met a lot more fantasy fans among esoteric groups (don't ask what was I doing there, it was a long time ago and I was young).
However, I am not implying these people are accepting everything dumbly without question. Instead, they don't question things if they work and they seem to put more emphasize on the big picture, rather than the small details.
While for a sci-fi reader it might be an annoying moment if he/she stumbles upon a scientifically inappropriate detail in the story, a fantasy reader won't really give a damn about how a fireball was tossed and how come someone can stop a river. It's the story that matters, the morale, the interactions.
Let me explain this does not mean we fanatasy readers don't need coherency. We also require the presence of something I would call common sense (delibelatery not using "rationality").
On the other hand, scifi readers seem to be more keen about details and usualy have a deeper scientific interest in real life aswell and be more of the type who won't go further unless something is fully explained and proven.
Another idea that came to my mind:
Fantasy stories are mostly set in a "medieval age" which usualy have a romantic, pleasent retrospective atmosphere. Lots of people like to think of the past as more glorious, better times while they often consider the future as uncertain, morally degenerated and grim.
Scifi fans tend to think the opposite, seeing the future as a chance for imporvement, advanced life and so on.
In the end I think while the two genres are VERY close to each other, the main difference is between the people who read them.
Both fantasy and scifi are fiction and as Neil Gaiman said "All fiction is fantasy of one kind or another."
I love both. I've always enjoyed reading science fiction and fantasy, and in fact almost all my books are either.
ReplyDeleteScifi is cool by me, Cereal. In fact, I'm watchin' Sanctuary on Syfy right now. Never much of a Trek fan except for Voyager. Loved Starwars, and I still try to watch the animated on CN, which is actually pretty good.
ReplyDeleteIf literature comes up, and it's scifi, it's got an ok in my book.
Fantasy is fantasy, in other words.
I love scifi. I think it is very interesting to read about; although, i was never much of a star trek fan or star wars fan, i really do enjoy scifi books. Scifi books seem to allow the story and descriptions to be manipulated more and form around the readers perception of the events going on in the book. Movies however normally set in stone how events look throughout the film. Movies like star wars or star trek are very entertaining but they dont leave much imagination to the viewer
ReplyDeleteLet me take a different tack. Science fiction and fantasy both require specific suspensions of disbelief on the part of the reader. It's not that science fiction could happen. Read 'The Time Machine.' Would most ponies consider it SF? Sure. Is it possible? Not by our physics. So the criteria isn't possibility.
ReplyDeleteInstead I think that both genres require the reader to play along to a certain degree. The amount of credit a reader is willing to give depends on how well the story is written to fit the expectations of the reader. SF story with plausible, reasonable background in science, technology, and sociology may go farther with a reader's credibility than 'Push button and go warp 9.' But that's not always the case. Some readers are perfectly content with pushing a button.
I think this is why a lot of people are adverse to both genres; they are written to pander to the expectations of their audience. A fantasy with nothing fantastic won't last long. Some authors take this to extremes, soaking a story with fantasy 'elements' to increase the chance of its success. But a story doesn't need magic to be a good fantasy. It simply needs to be a good story the reader can identify as fantastic.
Since people's mileage varies greatly from story to story, it makes fantasy and SF very hit or miss. On the other hoof, when a reader finds a story that meshes perfectly with their expectations for a fantasy then there's nothing else like it.
Just remember that fantasy has trees, and science fiction has rivets.
ReplyDeleteScience fiction = fantasy fiction. As OP pointed out, they're not genres, they're two different settings in which to write speculative fiction, which is the actual genre. Switch out sets and pronouns, put the elves in space, replace mysterious and vague magic system with technology described in way too much detail, replace/add on to racism with misogyny, replace author-insert martyr fantasy with author-insert revenge/self-pity fantasy, done.
ReplyDeleteThe actual stories (defeat X, what does it mean to be Y, what would it be like if Z, etc.) remain identical, and equally boring.
I like science fiction (a LOT) but am a picky bastard. I love anything by Isaac Asimov, almost everything by H.G. Wells, and a lot by Arthur C. Clarke. Unfortunately, I have a hard time finding good sci-fi since the Golden Age (50's-60's when sci-fi magazines [Astounding, Analog, et cetera] were first taking off.)
ReplyDeleteI personally prefer all-out science fantasy.
ReplyDeleteMagic and high technology in space? CAN IT GET ANY BETTER?!